I'd personally prefer the Morrowind system, I remember accidently entering a cavern and meeting my first Golden Saint (I was level 10 at the time).

I ran for my life and later came back when I was higher level and more prepared.

I don't want to feel like total god, though... but I also want to see the progress I make. This was where Oblivion got it wrong.

Again with the hyperbole and rant.

Look, you can keep on yelling "100% chameleon is a glitch" all you want, but it is not a glitch. It works within the proper mechanics of the game, therefore, not a glitch. A glitch is something that is not supposed to happen, like for example the infinite money glitch where you mount a horse, equip a weapon, go to a vendor in Kvatch, and keep on selling her the same weapon: the mechanics of the game say you can't sell a weapon when it is equipped, yet you get the gold from the merchant every time you try to sell that weapon. THAT is a glitch.
If the game has an armor that gives you 25% damage resistance, a ring that gives you 25% damage resistance, a helmet that gives you 25% damage resistance, and an amulet that gives you 25% damage resistance, and the mechanics of the game make effects of the stuff you are wearing cumulative, you wearing all of that equipment and being 100% damage resistance is NOT a glitch.


And again, you do not comprehend it is all a matter of choice. I have never used the infinite money glitch; I never use chameleon; matter of fact, I didn't even know about the 100% chameleon until it was mentioned here. Heck, I don't even use magic. You know the magic health regeneration spell every player gets in Oblivion? I never use it, and it is right there, just press C, yet, I don't use it, because I CHOOSE not to use it. Am I going to rant and rave magic restore health should be removed?

As for how someone else enjoys the game, well, that really is not of your business. Again, I never used chameleon, so I don't know if it is fun or not to play the game 100% hidden, but if someone enjoys playing the game 100% hidden, why in the heck can't he do that? It is one's game. It is one's CHOICE.

But I know where this comes from. It comes from all these "rankings" for multiplayer games. As I responded to the other poster, it is probably resentment that someone "beat the game" a certain way, and you feel cheated that you had to "work" harder to "beat the game". I will tell you the same thing I told the other dude: RPGs are not meant to be "beat". You are supposed to play a role within a story, and you choose how you do that.

Ah, I see.


I value immersion and sense of realism in games like this. I don't like the numbers to be even, because it alerts me of their presence. For me the fun comes from playing the role, and not so much the game.

However, I usually take your approach when it comes to online FPS games, because unbalance there is unfair.

Immersion.

Imagine it like this:

When Halgard finally managed to light a fire in the wind outside and put on his torch, he took the axe in his right hand while holding the torch with the left, and pushed the door to the cave open with his shoulder. At first he saw nothing. He was still blinded from the light outside and the torch in his hand. When his eyes slowly adapted, he could make out a long path leading inside the mountain. Halgard looked back, let the door fall shut, and then moved on. After a while, he noticed that the cave was getting larger. In fact, he might now be standing inside a large room - there was not enough light to really see more than slight reflections of it on the walls in the distance. He decided to move forward into the hall - he was sure that whatever was in here, he would be ready. After walking a few more steps, he suddenly stopped moving. Had he heared something? He looked around, the axe in a combat ready position - there it was again! Something was in here. It seemed to come from his right... He moved into the direction the sound had come from, and held as he saw something moving. Two small, blue dots, slowly moving towards him - then beginning to circle him. Halgard had seen it before: The eyes of a Draugr! A warrior, killed in the past, burried and yet not dead. "Come out, warrior!", Halgard shouted, "Step out of the shadows and show yourself! I came prepared, I came to fight! Accept the challenge and face me!" There was no fear in Halgards voice. The Draugr stopped going around him and slowly moved closer. Halgard could finally see whom he was facing: The warrior still wore his decorated tunic, his helmet and, of course, his weapons. The spear and shield he had been burried with; he held the weapon in his hands and the spear on his back, ready to block strikes from the side with it. "It is a honour to fight you, warrior", Halgard told him, and then rushed forward with his axe held high. The undead warrior braced for the attack, holding his spear ready for a quick, sudden thrust at the rushing enemy. But Halgard suddenly stopped moving when the warrior skeleton thrusted the spear at him. He grabbed the spear with his left hand, letting the torch fall to the ground, and slashed with his axe from the right. The Draugr moved closer to him, putting the shield inbetween himself and the incoming axe. The distinct sound of an axe hitting a shield could be heared, echoing through the cave, and it was stuck in the wood. Halgard looked into the eyes of the undead, then he surprisingly kicked against his leg. The Draugr almost fell when Halgard pulled the spear out of his hands - he was indeed one of the strongest warriors of his time. He thrusted the weapon towards the Draugr, who attempted to block the attack with his shield, but Halgard missed, hitting slightly to the right of his target, on purpose. Then he made a quick, long step to the right, half-circling the undead, while pushing the spear behind his shield so that the Draugr was unable to get into a defensive position. Then, with a sudden, powerful movement, he released the pressure he had onto the shield and quickly moved the spear up- and forward, thrusting it right into the skull of the Draugr. The undead fell to the ground, his eyes no longer shining. Halgard dropped the spear, pulled his axe out of the shield, picked up the torch and thanked the warrior for the fight. Then he began searching the room, finding an ancient chest. The lock was rusty and easily opened with the axe. Inside, he found Daedric Armor of Godlikeness, but decided not to take it because it would be overpowered.

It totally ruins immersion to suddenly have random [censored] thrown into my story! "Don't use it" is no argument! Why the hell would Halgard not use the Daedric armor? It is a balancing problem. I'm not cheating another player by taking it. The game is cheating me! Cheating me of my immersion, of my story, of my fun!

For me, it's not a question of how the others beat the game (beat a ES? That sounds... strange), but the game not being a Multiplayer Game doesn't mean it doesn't have to be balance. At least, I like balance. Please, watch the video I linked before. Now, with that effect you can kill people without being detected, becoming you immortal. Maybe it's not a glitch. But it's a clear, very clear, exploit. How is that different to have infinite money?

Oh, and I'm not anyone to question how he plays, but... well, for I have read he is, like me, a role-player. How can be fun to role-play being a darn superman?

fixed it for ya :wink_smile:

roleplaying :thumbsup:

Maybe Bethesda should just introduce some cheat codes that will permanently disable achievements for that anything downstream of that save file. That way people won't complain about the removal of exploits. Well, some still would, but such is life.

You know, I was thinking about something similar. It's sad, very sad in my opinion to reach that point in a RPG... but... if it does some good...

that's called a power fantasy, and i find it quite fun when getting into the role and mindset.

If, from the very beginning of the game, Halgard would have feared these items, you'd have a point. Halgard however had been using a daedric dagger before, and he didn't have a problem with it.

Or let's say in the chest, there's an item giving him 100% chameleon OR a full set of daedric armor OR any of all the other overpowered things that have ever been mentioned in the forums. What character would fear all that?

i don't care about achievements or trophies, those are worthless to me, as is ranking.

i just care about roleplaying and having fun with the game in anyway that i desire.

But it's not, however, the kind of fantasy that Bethesda tries to offer us. I'm not the only want that says so, Bethesda has always expressed their desire to make the game believable, balanced. If you play in a computer and you want to be extremely overpower for a while you have mods. If you have a console, that's a problem.. although the difficulty slider could do something similar, in terms of "overpowereness". However, I don't see the neccesity of having it, though. No one would ask for it in, let's say, Metal Gear. Why people ask for it TES, then?

give him another reason for your refusal, selling it for the money, invisibility is dishonorfull for a warrior, use your imagination.

I create these character traits at the beginning of the character creation! It pulls me out of the game just as much to retcon my previous image of the character to fit the changing situation.

Why should I, the player, have to think of reasons for my character not to be overpowered? That's the job of the developers! That is what I'm saying: It is a flaw in game design. A flaw that, if I do think of reasons for my character not to use these possibilities, can be fixed by myself, but would it not be better if there was no flaw in the first place?

kojima gave overpowered items for the players to have fun after completing playthroughs like stealth camo (same as 100%chameleon) and an infinite ammo item, among other fun stuff

the flaw that i see is that your main character is unchanging throughout the game, without character development by the player, i find it more interesting to create an initial personality for my character and then have it changed/unchanged throughout the quests and situations the character gets in. give your character emotions like fear, uncertainty, prejudice and see how they could influence him of how he approaches his quests and rewards.

I'm all for character development.

Explain me:

My character, who has not been created with any reason not to take this daedric armor, suddenly develops a fear of it. Why the hell?

Character development has to be logical! If he has had a traumatic experience with daedric items during the time I played him, I sure would from that point on give him a fear of these things. But if not, then not!

My character is born and raised, and at the end of this process, has all the fears, hopes, wishes, emotions etc. that are written on his character sheet as I create him. Anything else has to come later WITH A REASON. With an in-character reason, not an out-of-character reason!

He doesn't take the daedric armor. Why? Because he has a fear of it? No! Not unless something in the game happened before that made him fear it! He doesn't take them because the PLAYER thinks of a fear for him. The player, after initial character creation, should do nothing but trying to play the character he has created and let the character be developed by the game world and the things he sees and does in it!

No matter how many reasons you can name for my character to not put on a set of Daedric Armor: The game should not force me to come up with any of them, if I don't want to. The game should be working perfectly fine in the first place.

Please don't tell me I couldn't role-play. I've been doing it for years. Characters that changed over time, with new fears, new hopes, old problems, everything. And never have they gained or lost anything without ingame-explanation.

And I would't have problem if these fun stuff belonged to the place it belongs in Metal Gear: overpowered playtroughs, not mixed with a common playtrough... though I cannot see the implantation of something like that in a sandbox RPG, to be honest.

In adittion, I remind you that with stealth camo you can be attacked.

doesn't have to be just about fear of daedric items, that was just an example.

what if your character is hurting for money, or maybe he values financial power more than physical power.
or maybe your character thinks that too much power can corrupt and so he restrains himself or give him a reason of an entirely different nature alltogether that you think it's in-character.

Or maybe not? Maybe I created my character already before I started playing the game and ever since, nothing has happened that gave him any reason not to put on that armor?

What you are saying is that the game should be allowed to force me to change my character just as an excuse not to put on an overpowered item. An excuse for the developers fault.

what if another player really wants that item and it's in-character for him? who should bethesda cater to?

if this daedric armor was found in a low level place i'd agree with you, but i'm assuming the daedric armor is found on an optional high level dungeon.

bottom-line: i'm for overpowered weapons and items if i worked for it.

He is talking about an example I gave, complaining about the motif "don't want it, don't use it". I asked what would you do if, at the beggining of the game, you found a chest containing full daedric armor.

Then they would not be over-powered but correctly powered. If they are good, but put in a place where they logically could be, and are designed in a logically acceptable manner, then I'm not even complaining.

This was all under the premise that we wer in deed in a "low level" place. In a normal, profane place any character could have visited.

I was discussing the original point of view which was: "A singleplayer-game does not need to be balanced because the player can ignore the balancing problems by just not doing any unbalanced things". I replied with "Here is an example in which an unbalanced thing would either have to be taken, while remaining true to my character, or force me to act out-of-character, thus ruining my immersion".

I have seen no argument so far that would prove my example false.

This is all under the premise, too, that we are playing a role-playing game, not a sport. As such, I obviously see it as a set premise that the target audience is role players, or why else would the game be marketed as role playing game?

how about if the armor had a high attribute/skill requirement to wear? even if you acquired it at a low level place, you could keep it for later until your character was powerful enough to do it.

That would be a fix done by the developers. That's what I'm advocating indeed. That the developers fix the game and do not leave anything overpowered in it.

They may leave good, powerful items in it; but in a way that is not over-powered, but simply powered.