And how about the armor not being there...?

I think becoming some sort of god character is part of the fun. I mean, you start off as a weakling and then you increasingly get more powerful, more and more areas become not so dangerous and then relatively easy. Then you find artifacts and other kind of powerful objects, and by the end of the game you become really powerful. Isn't part of the fun of RPGs? To see your character evolve through all that time? To remember being afraid of certain places and now to find it's a piece of cake? It's not like the whole game is easy anyway, some areas stay hard pretty much until the end of the game. Otherwise, you feel like you haven't progressed at all and achieved nothing, like in Oblivion. After finishing everything, I still can get killed by Minotaurs...

Well, easy way to spoil any TES game is to go straight to UESP Wiki and find all the exploits. It isn't like there was any "chests full of daedric armor at the beginning of the game" but nearly all exploits require you at least some effort, and finding them out on your own require even more effort.

The problem here is that something that one considers a glitch is a choice to another. And there isn't any clear definition that tells us when you are using an exploit or just playing wisely, or is something really a glitch or not. For example, is firing a bow from a place your enemy can't reach using an exploit or just playing wisely? IMO thats just playing wisely.

I personally prefer a game that lets you do more in cost of some glitches as long as they aren't as obvious as "chest full of daedric armor at the beginning....". TES games are hard to make "glitch-free" if someone is really trying to brake the game and its my fear that if the game is developed in this way that there really isn't anything overpowered and no glitches, well, then all we are getting is dumbed down hack-and-slash.

could make for some fun stuff to happen, would you sell that high requirement armor? would you keep it in a chest? if you kept it, maybe someone hears about it and tries to steal it from you. etc and etc.

Then ignore it or something. It's not like very powerful items were easy to come by anyway. If you find a super powerful helmet, I doubt it would change things that much, same thing if you get a super powered sword when you have low sword skill and no additional super powerful equipment. Usually powerful items were left in more or less dangerous places. Have you guys played Morrowind? I don't know, I can't understand why some of you are so afraid of being a god-like machine right at the beginning of the game, or something... It's not like it ever happens... I feel this is people who hear about Morrowind and then get crazy because it's different than Oblivion, and then is necessarily bad. I mean, in real life, you get nothing locked in your face before you get better. If you find 10 000 bucks on the road, it's not because you don't have a career that you can't do what you want with it, even if other people are disadvantaged compared to you.

Have I not just, in several detailed posts, explained how it cannot be ignored? -.-



http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Lady%27s_Ring

Easy quest that gives you an amulet that makes most enemies in the game completely ignore your presence. Can be done at any time.

True. But the TES seies has allowed a lot of feedom. By limiting such a players character that the player feels limited in his or her playstyle defeats one of the concepts of TES. Perhaps a more effective difficulty slider to improve balance?

I'm all for a more effective difficulty system, yes.

As for freedom: Atm players are free to be gods, but not free not to be gods without giving up their immersion by ignoring the chances to become one

No, actually, you have not.
Youve compared hard to get effects that require detailed knowledge of the game with things being handed to you at the beginning of the game.
Even that Morrowind example is fallacious as you have to know about the quest first, and then you have to realise what this 80% chameleon has for an effect on NPC behaviour.
I mustve had the game for a full year before I did that. It can be done at a low level, level one in fact, as I pointed out on the talk page of what you linked.
It again requires a knowledge of how the game operates that normally is impossible to have on your first, or even second, playthrough.

Just. Dont. Google. It.

Explaining is not extended hyperbole, and it is not overexaggerating into the ridiculous.

You are not forced or anything. It doesn't make you stronger, it doesn't make you more resistant, it only makes you invisible. That doesn't enable you to do everything. And there's nothing forcing you to even speak to that random NPC, one could even not bother and would never know about. And then I think I searched for I don't know how much time twice (!) until I finally found the tiny ring. You may think it's probably not worth the hassle. And then, maybe you think there's more important rings you already have for your specific kind of characters. What if you don't care about getting invisible? And if you do, what's the problem? If you on the other hand, think that you shouldn't have it, then don't use it, nobody's forcing you. If you find an old WWII wine bottle in your backyard, will you tell yourself it's worth too much money for you? Sometimes there's a couple of powerful items that can be easy to get, but that's hardly the norm in Morrowind.

Artifacts should be artifacts in Skyrim, they shouldn't change depending on your level, and they certainly shouldn't appear based on your level. Artifacts are powerful items hidden across the land, be it held by NPCs or inside a tomb, that's all that should matter. Some may be easier than others to get, but that's just normal if you have a sizable number of them, you increase your chances of finding one more easily. But if you want to get all of them as well as the most powerful ones, well that's another question entirely. Back to that NPC you just showed me, you have to end up on her and talk to her. I'd bet half the people who played Morrowind on their first playthrough didn't find that specific ring. Some people only used transportation systems between cities or never used particular routes, or never bothered with NPCs along the roads because they might think they won't give anything worth it. But you shouldn't change the laws of probability because you don't want to be lucky enough to find something you judge too good for you at the moment. Those items don't know if you are powerful enough for them, and Bethesda should view them as such.

In my first post in this thread, on page 8, near the middle, I have taken an example given previously; an overpowered item being easily accessible; even changed this example from "start of the game" to "random, normal place in the game" and have then explained how my immersion would have been broken.

The Morrowind example is also one that could happen to anyone, at any time while playing. When it happened to me, I had not known or read about the quest before. Yet, after getting said amulet, I spent many hours wondering why Morrowind was such an easy game, until I realized that the amulet was completely OP. Hours in which I could have, instead, enjoyed the game and its challenges.

It is not true that overpowered things would require extensive reasearch. And even if they did, that'd not be an excuse not to fix them.

@Evil Johnny: My post should answer your questions in your first paragraph. You asked me how I happened to find this quest problematic, and above is your answer. It actually happened to me that this quest has seriously drained my gameplay experience. With no reason for my character not to use the amulet, I was only having two choices: To use it and walk right through all dangers of the world without ever being attacked unless I basically jumped on top of people; or to breach my immersion. Something that, while not being a major problem, still is one, and as such, requires fixing. I am not saying that Morrowind, due to this quest, was a bad game. I am merely saying that "just ignore it" is a worse solution than "fix it!".

I would have to agree. The idea that we have to remove a feature because it's OP or unbalanced in a single player only RPG is ludicrous. Freedom makes such games good.

There is simply no comparison between something handed to you freely at the beginning of the game, and an effect like 100% chameleon in Oblivion wich is quite hard to achieve.

And do you mind terribly if I simply dont believe you on what you describe about the amulet of shadows?
You seem to be under the assumption it is a constant effect, for one
It is not.
At lower levels you can use it maybe twice after wich the charge is gone. Thats one whole minute of not being seen.
It does not suddenly make the game easy.

powerful artifacts should give you a nice edge, but not god-mode. thats boring.




did we play the same game?

Then tell me the steps required to get 100% chameleon before level 15.
You have to work quite hard at that.
Join the mages guild, do their quests, open hard locks to pilfer soul gems, get a minor power with chameleon or level illusion..
After level 17 its simply a matter of saving and reloading at a sigil stone.

I would be sad if you'd think I was lying.

I have used the amulet. I know it has a limited charge, but I saw no in-character reason not to use it. I only realized that I was not actually "supposed" to have it after a long while. I thought the game simply WAS that easy.

Well, I never even thought about using that amulet for anything else than theft. Anyway, like I said, the artifact doesn't know you don't want it. It doesn't know which level you are. Probabilities says that the more artifacts you have in a game, the more chances you have into encountering one. And hell, you didn't even attended most of my post, so I was just going to repeat myself.


You're not gonna make me believe that this amulet changes the game drastically. It didn't to me, and I never ever heard about people finding this gamebreaking because it made them invincible.

I was a relatively sneaky character, an Argonian all-rounder, armed with spears and halberds whenever he'd find them, wearing medium armour normally. I was able to crawl through many dungeons with that thing without being noticed. I managed to, for example, sneak into the ministry of truth with it with almost no resistance. I think I even tried, in a second playthrough, to walk right up to Dagoth Ur with it, and most of his minions didn't notice me.



Yeah sorry, I kinda left this discussion a while ago and am doing something else atm. I'll get back to the rest of it later if the thread's still around then.

Again another well explained post :thumbsup:
You have hit the nail on the head-Yes we want to still feel the benefits have paid off ( be powerful ),but at the same time have something out there thats still a threat.
Even though it's a single player game some things need to be balanced anyway. Without being unfair or one-sided. By default the game should be difficult/very hard,because it's much easier to find ways to make a game easier than to make it harder in my opinion,so a game by default needs to be a challenge. Eventually when people have played the game for a while they find ways to exploit it or make themselves overpowered,if they like it,thats fine,but i hate it. There are always lots of options on making the game easier or being god-like,compared to it being harder.Thats why i believe the game should be hard to start with. If i buy a game thats too easy,i kinda feel ripped off. I find today that people tend to give up more easily with tough games,because they are used to feeling too powerful/extra special,sometimes it's good to get a kicking,and to think...right...how do i beat this bastard,rather than boom,down you go i'm god your weak,that was easy.


No disrepect meant here,but i was playing games while some of you were still in your dad's plums. That doesn't mean i'm better than you,but back in the day there was some very challenging games. Some people think challenging games cause frustration,maybe so,but getting over/or through that frustration to finally beat something "is" way more satisfying,than beating it in a heartbeat. Each to their own ,but i don't really understand how people don't like a challenge in a game,seems a waste to me,but thats just my opinion. As long as such godlyness isn't forced on the players that like a challenge ,then fair enough.

@Evil Johnny: Okay, here we go, to anolyze your first post:

(Broken quotes on purpose. Forum won't let me quote as much for whichever strange reason. I'd be happy if a mod'd fix that by removing the spaces in my quote tags, making the quotes work, if mods are allowed to do so.


[qu ote]You are not forced or anything.[/qoute]
I am not forced to accept the quest, take the amulet or use it. Not in the way that someone'd shoot me if I didn't. However, it seems like a pretty obvious thing to do when you come across the woman in the wilderness to talk to her, does it not? And it seems like a pretty obvious thing to help her out, defend yourself, and loot the bodies of the fallen? And to take the amulet of that invisible helper of her, assuming you'd also become as sneaky? (Being an argonian, I spent most of that quest under water anyway. Wasn't that hard for me to search for that ring because of that very cheap water breath 'spell'/ability that argonians had. Also, under water it was relatively easy to evade the ranged attacks of her companion.

[qu ote]It doesn't make you stronger, it doesn't make you more resistant, it only makes you invisible.[/quote]
True, but the invisibility (while being able to act normally) was a very big advantage in all situations in which dangerous enemies were around and were not primary targets. I.e., in all situations in which I was not forced to fight due to the quest.

[qu ote]That doesn't enable you to do everything.[/quote]
I have not claimed so.

[qu ote]And there's nothing forcing you to even speak to that random NPC, one could even not bother and would never know about.[/quote]
If I had looked it up in the UESP, I might not have talked to her. But I hadn't, so I did. In fact, I didn't even have an internet connection when I first played Morrowind, so I didn't even know about the UESP.

[qu ote]And then I think I searched for I don't know how much time twice (!) until I finally found the tiny ring.[/quote]
As I said, wasn't too hard. Even if I had not been an argonian, it just requires some luck or good eyes. Certainly not a huge challenge compared to some others in the game. The quest wasn't one of the really difficult ones. I admit, I wasn't level one, and the fight against the two was not very easy. But it was not very hard, either.

[qu ote]You may think it's probably not worth the hassle. And then, maybe you think there's more important rings you already have for your specific kind of characters. What if you don't care about getting invisible?[/quote]
I did care about being invisible. My character saw how effective it was, how well the ambush worked, and decided to do the same. Why would he not?

[qu ote]And if you do, what's the problem?[/quote]
That enemies will never be able to properly handle such invisibility. No matter how well guarded a place is, never would any AI think of the possibility that someone could be invisible. Even in a fight, they'd forget about you completely once you moved away a little. I think some even didn't fight back at all. Invisibility would not be such a problem if enemies would randomly attack any noise, or any place where someone could be around them, once they know about your trick or found the corpses of several of their mates with no trace of the killer.

[qu ote]If you on the other hand, think that you shouldn't have it, then don't use it, nobody's forcing you.[/quote]
Read my post on page 8 to understand what forces me to use an object of use for ma character. I can resist the urge, but that will decrease my enjoyment of the game, because I am thrown out of character. Like in the story I wrote. Imagine you read a book and suddenly the author scrached a whole page. You are thrown out of the world. There's no ignoring of that.

[qu ote]
If you find an old WWII wine bottle in your backyard, will you tell yourself it's worth too much money for you?[/quote]
No, I would probably sell/store it. I'd take advantage of the situation. As would my character. Just like I would have no reason to ignore the wine bottle, or refuse to take it, my character would have no reason to ignore/refuse the amulet, daedric armor, or whatever else he finds. Even if taking it decreases the enjoyment of the game. Thus, I need the game master - or in the case of a video game like this one, the developers - to balance the game for me.

[qu ote]Sometimes there's a couple of powerful items that can be easy to get, but that's hardly the norm in Morrowind.[/quote]
I never said it was the norm. Maybe you think I am trying to say something else than I actually am. I am only trying to say this: Balancing in singleplayer games is important and must be done.

[qu ote]Artifacts should be artifacts in Skyrim, they shouldn't change depending on your level, and they certainly shouldn't appear based on your level.[/quote]
Absolutely true. They should however appear not in places that a very weak character can easily reach, or they'll make the game too easy. Or rather: There could be quests with artifacts that are easy to get. Maybe even a "I have to power to use it, but it will mean suffering for others, should I do it?"-dilemma or something. Excellent game design!
The artifact should however still be logical and balanced within the game world, and not randomly appear in a crate in front of you at the beginning of the game (as was the case in the Daedric Armor example - nothign against Daedric Armor existing in general! In Morrowind the amount of Daedric Armor was very well done! In Oblivion on the other hand...), neither should there be any flaws in game design that make objects overpowered to a game-breaking extend (the infinite-alchemy-skill thing, for example).

[qu ote]Artifacts are powerful items hidden across the land, be it held by NPCs or inside a tomb, that's all that should matter. Some may be easier than others to get, but that's just normal if you have a sizable number of them, you increase your chances of finding one more easily.[/quote]
No disagreement.

[qu ote]But if you want to get all of them as well as the most powerful ones, well that's another question entirely. [/quote]
Don't quite understand what you're trying to say?

[qu ote]Back to that NPC you just showed me, you have to end up on her and talk to her. I'd bet half the people who played Morrowind on their first playthrough didn't find that specific ring.[/quote]
An uncommon problem is still a problem.

[qu ote]Some people only used transportation systems between cities or never used particular routes, or never bothered with NPCs along the roads because they might think they won't give anything worth it. But you shouldn't change the laws of probability because you don't want to be lucky enough to find something you judge too good for you at the moment.[/quote]
It wasn't just too good at the moment. It was too good in general AND easy to obtain. The problem with it was the way the AI handled it. I could literally have murdered entire towns using it without the guard ever attempting to take action. They'd just never realize they're being decimated. Real people would, on the other hand. That means the developers should learn from this mistake and, in the next game, change the way NPCs react to invisibility.

[qu ote]Those items don't know if you are powerful enough for them, and Bethesda should view them as such. [/quote]
Yes. All I want is them to be in logical, believable places AND for them to be logical in design, not making the game less fun, but more fun. The amulet of shadows or whatever it was called did make the game less fun for me. It was badly implemented.

I can't wait to see the answer to this one!

I wouldn't mind being godlike if it felt difficult to get there. MW is my favourite CRPG but it was too easy to become good at everything and there were too many massively OP items that once acquired the character had no good reason not to use even though as a player I felt they subtracted from the game.

I also wouldn't mind if it wasn't possible to become godlike but TES has always been epic fantasy and I expect it will continue to be so.

Geez.. well, some people find playing Superman fun. I don't need to watch the video. Whatever the video is, get this:
NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO PLAY THAT WAY.

I don't get it why it is so hard to comprehend that if it works within the mechanics of the game, it is not an exploit, it is a CHOICE Why is CHOICE so hard to comprehend?

So, you decide you want to role play a bad guy. What do you do when the dialog gives you CHOICE of following the good patch? Do you scream "it is broken because the game is forcing me to be a good guy"? Is that what you do?

There should be no overpowered items in the vanilla version of Skyrim. If you're an RP'er or simply like playing through a balanced game, you should be able to do so without having to actively avoid such items. If you want to be overpowered, use the CK or hope there are a few cheats if you're playing on a console.

That isn't to say that you shouldn't be able to actively seek out items that make you a great deal stronger than mother other players (mostly through enchanting or alchemy with poisons).. just that there shouldn't be a shield that reflects 100% of everything, laying on a table in some house somewhere.

That's a lot of post, but that is the thing, whatever you think is obvious or not, IT IS YOUR CHOICE TO DO SO OR NOT, regardless of how "obvious" you think it is. You don't have to talk to the lady, you do not have to loot the bodies, you do not have to fight.

I am going to ask you the same question I asked the other poster: if, say, you decide to play an evil character, what do you do when the dialog gives you "good guy" dialog options? Do you say to yourself 'oh, no. Now I have to play a good guy'?

I baffles the mind why people don't understand choice in RPGs: the choice to make a game as easy or as hard as you want, the choice of following this or that quest, or no quest at all, the choice to use an item or not.