i agree, but i guess when it comes down to it as deciding weither to kill Paar or not, the Blades kinda made up my minds on keeping him alive on how messed up the whole situation was with them. I mean to me now that Alduin is gone ANY dragon can be killed and wont be brought back to life soo Paar is lumped in with the reg dragons. He and the rest of the dragons can be killed easyly or no without the dragonborn help at all so im not worried at all what the future holds as far as paar's fate, a grp of guards that are lucky and skilled could bring him down if he goes off terririzing....BUT the Blades situation.... the whole situation with them just to me was epic fail as in how the whoel setup goes down see post above.

The problem was bad writing. The dialogue was just written poorly, and I think Bethesda lost track of what they were trying to achieve. You see, there's a book early on that mentions Paarthanaax, and which also indicates he was still being actively hunted in the second era. That, combined with the info in Annals of the Dragonguard, hint that the propaganda about his helpfulness during the Dragon Wars may in fact be an outright lie.

The story's logic fails at the end, too. You don't need the Dragonborn to slay Alduin - just someone who knows the appropriate shout. What makes the Dragonborn special is that he ensures that dragons stay dead. And considering the Dragonborn's true nature - the Greybeards are no friends of his.

To me, I think there's more to Paar than meets the eye.

Granted, the Blades are annoyingly stuck-up people who ask the Dragonborn to run a bunch of errands, then give him an ultimatum when they should really be supporting him...but has anyone thought really hard about Paarthurnax himself? It's all well and good that people/dragons should be given a chance to repent for their past actions, and he seems friendly enough - but most great tyrants and despots in history have been consummate and charismatic wordsmiths or orators. Paar isn't an idiot, either - he knows the power that the Dragonborn has. If he were truly evil, it would be far more prudent to gain the trust of his nemesis - i.e. the Dovahkiin - prior to betraying him, instead of launching an all-out assault that could end in failure. Who can confidently, definitively say that Paarthurnax's words are all true?

He himself contradicts his own points in a number of ways. First, he tells the Dovahkiin that he is engaged in a constant struggle with his tyrannical nature. Then he asks the Dovahkiin which is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature? That sentence suggests that he is free from his natural desire for power, and yet before that he says he has never won and is always battling against himself. This in itself could be an attempt at victimisation, to draw sympathy from the Dragonborn into empathizing with Paar, gaining his trust and making future betrayal all the easier. The discontinuity in his statements do not add up to me.

The last thing is more likely an oversight on gamesas's part, but still confusing to me, and very pertinent.

Based on the way that the Thu'um works, each of the words must be fully understood before they can be used. In that case, how did Paarthurnax learn Dragonrend to teach to the three heroes? In order to have pioneered the shout, Paar must have needed to fully understand mortality - in essence, inflicting it upon himself to gain an understanding of the words, turning them into Thu'um. This is worrying because if he knows intricately how this shout works, he would therefore also be able to pioneer a counter-shout. Basically, if I develop a weapon of 'x' degree of lethality, I have the knowledge I need to develop a defense of 'x' degree of protection.

Essentially, Paarthurnax can develop a defense that would render Dragonrend useless, since he is the one who best knows all the details of this Shout.

If Paarthurnax is evil, and just wants Alduin out of the way, then this is worrying. Even if Paarthurnax is trying to be Lawful Good, the moment he slips, Dragonrend will still not be effective.

When you actually kill Paarthurnax in-game, Dragonrend does work - from a logical point of view, Paarthurnax has everything he needs to make it ineffective. One could say that this just goes to show how changed Paar really is, but it still isn't enough to totally disregard the fact that if/when he does fail in his moral struggle, he has the capability to eschew the one weakness that Alduin had.

@Lupercal

I agree with a lot of what you said, except there's one niggling detail: Paarthanaax didn't teach anyone Dragonrend. He knows about it, but doesn't actually know it.

I dislike painting anyone with the good/evil brush, especially in TES. Paarthanaax is a dragon, and that means his interests aren't yours. The real decision should be about weighing those interests against yours.

lol again i agree on most of what u said, because of the bad writing u can also lump the Blades as being no friends of the dragonborn either. As far as books, wasnt it the Blades early book or one about the blades talkign about the blades constantly wanting to go after Paar, but the idea keep getting shot down by the dragonborn they were serving, like someone stated in another thread that maybe Paar and Tiber septim had an agreement of some sorts that Paar would stay where he was isolated from the world staying a "reformed" dragon and to teach the dragonborns that coem after the thuum and words for them to grow stronger...what Paar gets outta it besides his survival i dunno. But it is in books that the blades were very disappointed to be denied the chance to go after Paar.

As far as his help during the dragon war a lie or conspiracy or not, dosent deny the fact he has seaching to reform himself...

if i recall wasnt the tablets on the way to greybeards about them forming after a greta man sat and contemplated about the thuum for soem war when everyone was pretty much using it that maybe the thuum was widely taught but the thuum knowledge became locked down under the greybeards as being the only ones who had the knowledge instead of everyone having it? mmm that might explain alot the draugars having the shouts and some that are named that were in no ways dragon worshippers....i am running right off course. can someone enlighten me?

But didn't Paarthurnax teach Dragonrend to the three heroes who first defeated Alduin? Gormlaith, Hakon and the other magician-dude o.O

There's actually not much info on Talos's encounter with the Greybeards, other than them acknowledging him as Dragonborn and telling him to go south. You can read almost anything into that, but I get the impression Talos didn't exactly part on friendly terms.

The Blades were fully aware where Paarthanaax was, but chose to await an opportunity to deal with him rather than directly confront the Greybeards (this is pre-Tiber Septim) I'm not surprised Esbern and Delphine come into this info late, considering that the Blades compartmentalised their data.

The Greybeards are isolationists and very selective on whom they deal with, let alone teach - however, there's hints in the lore that Nords didn't have a monopoly on knowing the Thu'um.

EDIT:



Nope, he did not.

"During the great Dragon War in ages past, the Dragonrend shout was crafted by the first mortal Tongues - those who had learned the use of Thu'um fromhttp://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Paarthurnax_(Character) - to be used as a powerful weapon against dragons."

....ah, right Oh well, that's one part of my argument down.

Paarthurnax even says that Dragons cannot know Dragonrend, because the concept it enforces upon the one who understands it is as alien to them as some of theirs are to Humans.

I noticed the discrepancy in Paarthurnax's lines as well, however it can also be taken as follows:

1) He's always struggling against his Draconic nature, and probably always will (he basically admits this)
2) At the time we meet him he has temporarily won said struggle, and has suppressed the need to dominate for the time being
3) He knows from experience that it won't last, and is determined to spread his Way as far as possible before that happens

Looked at this way, he's not really going to be a threat any time soon, in which case the Blades' hatred is truly blind and completely misplaced. This is why I wanted to grab Delphine by the neck and slap some sense into her after she delivered the ultimatum; it's pretty clear she hasn't a freaking clue, and is engaging in knee-jerk reactionism rather than considering how much of an asset Paarthurnax is actually being by keeping a bunch of the dragons in check.

or:

4) He's stringing you along. I know, I know, it's inconcievable for a Dragon to lie, much less cut a deal with mortals to protect it. It's not like it ever happened in TES....oh wait.

I agree with you.

He used the dovakiin to kill his brother, now he just has to wait for you to die which really isn't a big deal for an immortal. While he waits he builds the strength and size if his dragon cult (aka greybeards) then when you are gone he can lead his take over.

well this conversation went somewhere really interesting.

I remember his dialogue not making much sense...

Hm, it really is up to you.

In my opinion, they have broke the pact they were ment to serve. Parrthurnax is basically protected from Tiber Septim, that instantly made him a no kill for me. Though this is mainly on what you think is right. Do with your gut & do what you will be happy with.

this wouldnt be nearly a big deal if bethesda broke the lore with the blades on us, but nomatter what u choose, paar is just like any other dragon and can be taken down like any other dragon but pretty much anyone with skill or luck.

How easy the dragons die in the game doesn't fit lore, so it gives the player the impression Paarth isn't as big of a threat has he really is lore wise. The game makes you think any group of guards or even a few bears could kill a dragon, since they do in the game, but that's a problem with the game not balancing things right. A dragon should be able to easily destroy a small town, like Helgen in the beginning, which means a living Paarth is a huge threat. Add to that the greybeards and any dragons he can convince to join him. Paarth needs to die!

Dragons CAN destroy towns if they stick to the air.

And bears...bears are scary!

ok game mechanics yes could make people think that, but i was going off the first dragon i fought and killed was outside of whiterun with me the toon who didnt knwo he was dragonborn without any dragons shouts at his disposal with soem guards who basically only have experience with minor bandit grps. yes a grp of guards wot be able to take down a dragon EVERYTIME, but id say a grp of guards with fighting experience that are preparing or at least expecting a dragon has a good chance. I mean peopel were killing dragons before the dragonborn came along, its just with the dragon born its like bringing aan automtic machine gun to a pistol fight.

as far as helgen goes, withall that military there, they woulda killed the dragon except the dragon they were fighting was Alduin who cant be hurt by anything except after dragonrend...


but on a whoel after reading and participating inthis topic nd others about the paar vs blades, its has opened my eyes that paar COULD become a threat or is one but long time down the road, BUT i have yet to see anything excuses the breaking of Lore with the baldes acting and mainly giving the ulitmatum that they gave. Closest thing i have seen is soemone saying that they are trying to reform the blades not from old because they were formed under tiber septim when dragosn were pretty much extinct BUT trying to reform themselves into dragonguards which their order's ancestors used to be part of "500 years BEFORE the blades were formed". So seeing how im pissed off about how the blades were done in this game yes i will make things interesting for the future generatiosn of Skyrim byleaving Paar alive.....besides what true-blooded Nord wouldnt want the chance to square off against a powerful beast to prove thier worth?

And dragons absolutely do decimate the population at higher levels. Perhaps that should be true at lower levels as well - although I can imagine players wouldn't be pleased by the rapid decline of merchants and quest givers. Regardless, Paarthanaax is severely underpowered mechanics-wise. (And after having an ancient dragon attack inside Riften, I now understand why so many NPC's were set to be essential - although what Bethesda should have done instead was program all but the guards to run indoors.)


Try doing Dragon Rising past level 20. NONE of the guards survive.

Second character I did it at 35, ran out to the watch tower and the dragon immediately one shotted me (on expert). When I finally won there were 2 guards alive and the invincible dark elf had been put down a half dozen times. Dragons have been a whole new challenge after starring the Mq later.

i have, when its just "dragons" they pretty much survive BUT when its elder dragons and such yeahhh they all pretty much get toasted. But then again i cant reallys ee the WHOLE dragon army being nothing but elders, elders would pretty much be the wrecking ball and the "dragons" would just be the cannon fodder. But itd be a toss up, if we are talkign about right now in the game without the dragonborn yeah, the country in civil war to busy to worry about helpign each other out to fight dragons, they more worried about fighting stormcloaks and imperials.

BUT if we are talkign about AFTER the dragonborn dies and pretty much lays waste to ALOT of dragons and the civil war is done so proper defence and such and the country can focus on the dragon problem.......then id say the country would have a fighting chance unified...i mean cmon its the country of NORDS, by the time the first year was up there wouldbe multitudes of "dragon hunters" grps just forming to get a name for themselves, fight a glorious battle agaisnt a worth foe, and/or just for the honor in it. I mean the country does figth with themselves as a favorite pastime. So not really worried about the dragons afterwards.

Yup - I know it goes against Bethesda's do anything whenever philosophy, but this really should have been designed to kick off ONLY once you reach a certain level.

Get a different intro, one centered around the civil war no dragon, then around level 25 a "random"encounter occurs with a named dragon swooping down on you giving some dialogue about the return of Alduin and then fight. You slay him and discover you're dragon born. Could have been epic! But the ad campaign requires the story setup the way we got it

Except it doesnt becuase if your that high of a level it is assumed you are equally equiped.

There's a whole lot I would have changed about the MQ, including a branching questline that avoids the absurd situation bouncing the player between opposing factions before forcing a choice with laughable consequences. As is, having some old farts refuse to talk to me because I killed their pet dragon is a joke. It's even more humerous that they insinuate they wouldn't have allowed you see him without the proper indoctrination, but since the Blades got involved they'll help you out. Okaaaayyyy.....

So you think its unreasonable that the greaybears would hate you for killing thier leader?

So I guess its unreasonable that if you killed the president of a country the people of that country would hate you?