so its not ok that Paar betrayed his bro and the dragosn to save humans BUT it is ok to betray a comrade who just helped because he no longer useful...

the blades ARE using the dragonborn because if they are tryign to go back to the ways of dragonGuard then THEY need to go and slay his ass, alduins gone aint no one bringing him back to life

Paar isnt and wasnt ever a enemy of the Blades, he was an enemy of the dragonGuard.....u knwo that grp of people who followed the dragons into skyrim and invaded and pretty much almost commited genocide before Tiber septim himself came along and smacked them down.

If we are bringing Paar acts in the past to justice then why do i not have a right to bring the Dragonguards actions to Justice by slaying delphie and esbern? Ahh ya thats right, the dragonguard pretty much atoned for their crimes by swearing an Oath to SERVE and PROTECT the DragonBorns BUT why is it Justice to be an enemy and have slained 1000s of dragonguards that pretty mcuh Tiber septim himself and his army did.....does that mean the dragonborn are her enemys also since wayyy in the past a man came along and put the smackdown on their genocidal grp and subjucated them into whats almost slavery for serving and protecting himto make up for thier crimes???

As the Dragonborn, my mission is to save everyone from Alduin, yet the Blades want me to get involved in their personal vendetta with Paarthurnax, who is actually helping me as well, regardless of his past which I didn't personally witness. Normally someone's past would tempt me to off them but in this case it's a distraction to the the pending issue, and Paarthurnax is hardly asking me to do the same of them.

The only time I can off Paarthurnax is when I feel like being some faction/individual's mercenary without much regard for current events or sense of priority. I don't think emotions for Paarthurnax's past should really lead an individual with such heavy responsibility for a bigger picture around on a leash unless he's still a threat -- obviously in my game I could tear him to shreds like any other dragon if he were.

So basically, Delphine's demand was rather at the wrong time (I found it egocentric but won't blow it out of proportion just as much as Paarthurnax's past is in this topic relative to his current state), and was just something I shrugged off for more impending matters.

Maybe we shouldn't judge the blades by the opinions of one of their research librarians and a field agent with a particularly well developed sense of survival (or maybe luck would be closer). The actual blades are long dead and gone. Having Delphine and Esbern restart them will just set up a pale shadow of their former glory without Imperial mandate and with no sense of what their goals should be. Perhaps their telling you to kill the dragon is a way of telling the players that they are clueless.

Heck even in the time of Oblivion, don't forget they FAILED to protect the emperor and thus allowed the sequence of events to begin in Oblivion and thus they were at least partly responsible for the death of Martin, the last of the Septim line. The whole organization, by the time of Oblivion seemed both clueless and incompetent.

Maybe the game should let you set up a new anti-Thalmor organization using the old Sky Haven temple as a base.

Yes. Thank you. I hope someone does a mod for this.

I let him live. He taught man the voice. I respect that.

And perhaps in the first DLC for this game, Delphine might not be "essential" anymore.

Yes the Avaviri's and the people of Tameriel have had their squabbles so to speak....however, the very reason the Avaviri Dragonguard were "allowed" to raise in rank to become the Emperor's personal guard was because their presence was misunderstood....The Avaviri Dragonguard DID NOT come to Skyrim or Tamreiel to take over...they came in search of the Dragonborn....The Blades had been fighting Dragons for centuries....but they could not permantly kill them...they kept coming back to life...The blades learned of individual who could devour a dragons soul and permantely kill him....that is why they came..in search of one with that gift, to teach him, to train him, and to help him set history right the way it should be.

where do the Greybeards get their info? They have gotten all their info from Parthurnaax...Parthurnaax has been lieing to them for a long time...Parthurnaax has left out the whole left side of Alduin Walls (Where the Avaviri Blades are shown helping the Nord Heros fight the Dragons) Proof: If you Attack Alduin on the Throat of the World with DragonBane he will say: "You have the weapon of youre ancestors, but you lack their skill" Dragonbane is an Ancient, revered Avaviri Katana and Artifact of the Blades/Avavirir Dragonguard....now how would Alduin know of this blade, and knowthe Nordic Ancestors used this blade.against him..unless it was given/lent to a Dragonborn during the Great War by the Akaviri helpers that Parthurnaax and his little stone tablets to Throat of the World so conviently leave out.

Parthurnaax tells you at the end that he plans to "force" all dragons to see the right of his Th'um (meaning he is the top dog now) if they want to hear it or not...Parthurnaax plans to exert his power over the other dovah...

Odaving himself tells you at the End that Parthurnaax is a TYRANT....he tells you "he doubts most of the dovah would trade Alduin lordship for the tyranny of Parthurnaax's way of the voice"

who would better know Parthurnaax's true intentions then Odaving? by letting Parthurnaax live, you are letting him have the last laugh....he flat out tells you he is going to force the other dragons under his leadership by forcing them to the way of the voice...so he says...also Parthurnaax says "he feels younger then he ever has"...meaning his old ways are coming back....once Parthurnaax has bent the other dovah to his will...the real temptation of power will be dangling right in front of his face...its like telling a kid not to get a cookie out of the cookie jar and then walking away...Parthurnaax hiding on that mountain for all those years was an act....he secluded himself for thousands of years so he could let his plan come to fruition.....he had to remove himself from temptation until the time was right....that was his plan all along.

Also, you do realize that many of the Avaviri swords of fallen Blades that hung in Cloud ruler Temple in Bruma are there because of of Parthurnaax....the Blades have every right to want him brought to justice for what he has done.....Do you think Jaufree, Baurus, and the others did not know of Parthurnaax? of course they did....thye didn't want confrontation with the Greybeards because the Greybeards are being manipulated, they were being lied to....the Greybeards did not deserve to die at the hands of the Blades for protecting someone who has lied and manipulated their order for centuries..Parthurnaax founded the Way of the Voice and trained the Greybeards to not only help the Dragonborn.....that was second fiddle. their true purpose was to protect him from the justice of the Blades....to prevent the Blades from coming up that mountain after him...as Parthurnaax knew the Blades were men of honor...they would kill innocent men...thats why the books in Sky Haven Temple says the Grandmaster wanted to avoid direct confrontation with the Greybeards while they waited for the time to extract justice...

Think about it...yes the Greybeards could use the Voice....yes they could put up a fight against the blades if needed, however...the Blades at that time would have and could have went right through the Greybeards if they wanted to...The blades number in the many thousands all over Tamriel at that time...5 Greybeards with The Voice ar enot going to be able to beat thousands of highly trained, armed blades....see Red Mountain...where the Shouting Nords were beaten by the Dunmer..

The Blades didn't want to hurt the Greybeards because the Greybeards had not done anything wrong...the blades knew the Greybeards were being manipulated into protecting Parthurnaax....thats the big reason the Blades and the Greybeards had a rift...because the Greybeards wouldn't listen to early Grandmasters of the Blades...and the blades were not going to "go through" the Greybeards to get to Parthurnaax because thats not justice, and its not the honor bound way of the Blades to do something like that....

Also, the Blades are not dead....in skyrim...we know of only two Blades left....however...its not out of the realm of posibility that there are remaining blades in Cyrodill, and the other provinces that once they hear of "men killing dragons in Skyrim with Akaviri curved long swords" they may come out of hiding to see and find whats left of their order....Also, just because in game you can only recruit 3 doesn't mean more won't be recruited by the Dragonborn...The 3 limit was put into place i think to prevent a lot of lag by having a Dragon or two + you + 3 helpers on screen at once....The Blades could very easily be rebuilt...now they Have a Dragonborn....They have their Ancient records back, a lot of what was lost at cloud ruler temple is at Sky Haven...their history and lineage is in tact...The Blades are very well in tact and on the rise.

The Blades will play a very important role in the Empire's next showdown with the Thalmor....as they will get even for what the Thalmor done to them...and restore sactity to Talos sacred name...Remember what Jaufree said...The Blades are known as the Order of Talos.....its also their honor sworn duty to honor the name of Talos...

The books ar ekinda stetchy, but the Greybeards told Tiber Septim that he had to go south to build an empire....its not outside the realm of posibility that tiber Septim found out who and what Parthurnaax really was and wanted to put an end to him then, and the Greybeards protected him....and The Greybeards "nice way" of telling him to leave was telling him to carve out an empire down south...thus occupying him with building an empire and he doesn't have time to worry about Parthurnaax....thats a very valid assumption....

Jaufree, Baurus, the other great Blades...if they were alive in skyrim...they would want Parthurnaax brought to justice for his crimes....The Greybeards makes excuses for him because they don't want to believe in their hearts how much of a bad guy Parthurnaax is....

Don't get me wrong...i liked Parthurnaax...i wish i didn't have to end him...I did not get pleasure out of ending him...but it was the right thing to do....setting right a centuries old wrong....thousands of years to a dragon is equivalaent to like 70 years for a person since dragons are immortal....so by that anology should a man who has commited heinoius acts be left alone after 70 years? should justice not be served? Should we make exceptions in the law for one but not another?

just because Parthurnaax is a dragon and he helped people...that excuses him for his crimes? Parthurnaax commited atrocities that are crimes....either the law is applied equally to all be they human or dragon...or they are not applied at all....they have to be uniform and applied equally to all or there is no law....im sure the Emperor's agreed with the blades(or else the Blades would not have been plotting in secret behind the emperor's back to exact justice on Parthurnaax) they just agreed the blades would not hurt the Greybeards in the process who had done nothing wrong because thats not justice...

also again...Remember Odavings words...a dragon telling you Parthurnaax is seen as a tyrant by other dragons....who better to known Parthurnaax then one of his own kind....atleast Odaving has honor...he is upfront with you, and swears his service to you not only because you beat alduin twice, but you defeated him in single combat and trapped him...and he made an oath to serve you...Odaving is honorable and upfront about his intentions....Parthurnaax not so much.

"the other great Blades" are those who totally failed to protect the emperor.... The Blades can take a very long walk off a very short, VERY high pier. My toons, one and all, side with Paarthurnax.

I dislike delphine and Esbern after they told me to kill Paar. There attempting genocide on a race, which in my book is bad.(Jesus there more racist then Ulfric!!!)

I spared him, hes a poor old dragon just chilling on the top of a mountain! (Which has the notched pickaxe and 2 malachite veins aswell as 2 ebony veins FYI) So it would be just plain mean to kill the guardian of the Minecraft reference!

In my view Bolar was the last true blade....

I'd have to agree there.

" The Thalmor have come for me, but they shall not desecrate this place. I go forth to meet my death with honor. If you are worthy, take up my blade and do the same."

Yep. I was hunting for that, but you got it before I did. I take up his blade, and salute him. Then go out and do as he wished.

It all depends, are you a Dovahkin or a Dovahkid?

i wonder if they will ever add an option to make peace between the Blades and Greybeards?

This is something that gets brought up a lot, but people tend to point to the outside to signify the worth of a faction, and whether it's worth supporting or not. Like, some people can't see good in the Empire, say it was cool once, but now it stands for nothing. Same goes for the Blades, I suppose. "Bolar was the last true Blade. They're not worth my time now."

My question though is: Why can't YOU be the last true blade? Or, if it's the empire, why can't YOU be the person that resurrects what the empire supposedly stands for? We are the player/protagonist. In the end, it doesn't matter what you choose or what NPC has more honor or not. If you see something good about the Cloaks, but hate some of the things Ulfric stands for - well, who's to say you can't clean house a bit? Why do we give power and influence to all of these stupid NPCs? Why does it always revolve around them?

I say choose whoever gives you the best phat lootz, and you leave it up to yourself whoever the "last true" somethingmajig is.

Ahem. Does that make sense?

all excellent points but i do have a different opionions on situations as in ok the "tyranny of the way of the voice"....yes to dragons it will seem like tyranny when someone is gonna deny ur "habits and way of thinking"....its like telling someone that they HAVE to quit eating meat and eat veggies form now on for no other reason that eating meat means ending thelife of an animal life form below u.....
Also i was under the impression that Tiber Septim had to conquer the DragonGuard FIRST and then afterwards they found out he was dagonborn and swore the oath to serve and protect the dragonborn as a way of sentence for making up for the atrocities they have done......so by that means if the Blades can attone their sins by doing works why not Paar?
Also i dotn agree with the idea of Greybeards "protecting" paar from Tiber by tellign him to go south, otherwise why did Tiber and pretty much every Emporer forbade the Blades form goign after Paar if at first they wanted paar dead why not tell the Blades to go for it. Im not aware of any contract or agreement between Greybeards and Tiber on the grounds of dealing with Paar or hell the greybeards themselves.
Also the mass amoutn of Blade graves right there on the side of the mountain.....so u saying that soemone comes to you and trys to kill you and u kill them back. because form the location of the graves, it looks like the Blades came to Paar, Paar didnt go outta his way and find the blades because they were comign after him on that mountain where hes been chillin and fought back against someoen who came after him and wanted him dead....thats not Justice for the Blades, thats a hunter getting onsessed with a dangerous game that have eluded and killed their earlier hunters when they went after it and feel its a swore duty to finish the hunt because peopel have lose thier lives over it...hunter being angry and obsessed that its game has remained free for so long..
also remember the Nords didnt actually form/come from skyrim, they came from High Rock same place as the DragonGuard so yes there would eb pictures depicting Nords and dragonGuards fightign dragons from that point of view.


also the whoel order of talos thing...the game breaks it when the "blades" give u an ultimatum to not follow u and follow their oath for not killing Paar....someoen may i remind that tiber himself forbade the baldes going after. so if the mighty talos himself didnt want dead BUT because i also have same feelign as the almighty Talos...im not good enuf or a true "dragonborn"?

It would make sense IF that was actually an option. Of course I can RP it to my own content, but I can't really "do eet".... because the game is crippled right now as far as actual choices. With consequences.

Does that mean I don't like the game? Oh, no! Not at all. I LOVE the game (well, I hate the armor.... but that's a different rant....) - it's a marvelous game, and will be even better once the CK is out and the modders start filling in the holes.

You bring up some very good points as well. I must say.

As for The Blades graves on the mountain, I don't think they were killed by Paarthurnaax...how could the blades even climb the mountain without the "Clear Skies" shout because Paarthurnax had the path to him sealed off by that deadly blizard wind...I would think those Blades graves are left from remmenants of the Dragon War (during the Flashback when you learn DragonRend, The Blades are helping the Nord Heros fight the Dragons and Alduin on and around that mountain, and im sure many died for the cause) The Blades never climbed the mountain after Paarthurnax because they didn't have clear skies shout, and even if they did...The Grand Masters of the Blades forbid their members to have any type of confrontation with the Greybeards....I highley doubt the Greybeards were just going to allow the Blades to climb the mountain...they didn't even want Delphine and Esbern at the peace conference and wanted to kick them out of the building....

I may have missed a book, but i didn't see anywhere that says the Emperor's were protecting Paarthurnax...I think it was more The Blades Grandmasters did not see any honor in having to go through the Greybeards(killing them) in order to get to Paarthurnaax...thats not their way....theres no honor in that.

Also if you really think about it, The Blades did more to help the Ancient nords and the Dragonborn then Paarthurnax does...Delphine and Esbern are the ones who send the courier to teach you Word Walls, They send you on Dragon hunts to allow you to absorb more souls and become more powerful, they send 3 Blades members to help you, and The Blades also give you the most powerful sowrd in the game in DragonBane (if you get Dragonbane at level 46 or higher it does more damage then a Daedric sword and weighs two pounds less and does a very nice damage bonus to Dragons) it is the bes sword to use against Dragons.

The Dragonbane sword was created by the Avaviri Blades as the ultimate weapon to use against Dragons(Alduin in particular) There is a reason Alduin remembers that Blade when you use it against him...because its the only real blade that deals massive amounts of damage to him....your really short changing yourself if you don't use Dragonbane against Alduin....i buried it deep in him in honor of The Blades.

However, don't get me wrong...I think if the game gave me the choice to make peace between the Blades and The Greybeards/Parthurnaax i would have gone that route...its a much better route and a much better option to putting things to rest....but they didn't....i left him alive in one game, but killed him in my other two...

Killing Paarthurnaax is more then just bring him to justice, its more then just killing him for the Blades.....your also killing him for the Dovah....if you let Paarthurnaax live...he flat out says he is going to use his Th'um to dominate the other Dragons to bring them into "The Way of the Voice"...in essence forcing a tyranny on the other dragons....Of course the Other Dragons will most likely rebel or resist against Paarthurnaax's tyranny like OdaVing says....you don't think this fighting won't spill out into populated areas across Tamriel? will it be acceptable that innocent people will die in the crossfire while Paarthurnaax tries to force his will on other dragons?

If Paarthurnaax is dead, Odaving will tell you that you are the rightful heair to Alduin lordship because you have proven your Voice to be stronger then all others....however the Dovahkin will not force his will and ideals on the Dragons like Paarthurnaax plans to....Even Alduin did not force his ideals and will on the Dovah...the dovah were free to live their lives as they saw fit...all that was required of them was to acknowledge Alduin as king and to come to him when he called, other then that...the Dovah were free to pursue their own interests...under Paarthurnaax he will try to force them to live in a way they don';t want....it would be no different then the Tyranny King George tried to force on the American colonies back in the day.

If the Dragons want to change, that change should come of their own free will....it should not be forced on them by Paarthurnaax....Parthurnaax was not forced into the way of the voice, he willing accepted himself, and the other Dovah should be given the same opportunity....they should not be forced by Paarthurnaax....

by killing Paarthurnaax, The Dragonborn is giving the rest of the Dovah a reprive....a life of free choice, a life where they can choose their own path for the future...if they attack people again and get killed by the Dragonborn or others, they were killed because of the choices they madde out of free will....if they decide to live in peace, again that is a choice they made on their own merit....they should not be forced into it by Paarthurnaax....Tyranny is tyranny no matter if your intentions are good or not...forcing a horse to drink water when its not thristy is just wrong.

Also when you kill Paarthurnaax, you don't really kill him...his soul becomes part of the Dragonborn....he lives on inside the Dragonborn...his soul will contribute to the Dragonborns great deeds....in this Paarthurnaax will receive his redemption in full and the scales of justice balanced perfectly...

Paarthurnaax will be revived at the End of the World when Alduin returns for the final dance(since you did not absorb Alduin soul, you just vanquished him for now, he will be back at some point, the Greybeards and Parth don't believe he is gone for good) Paarthurnaax will be given a second chance at that point, and he will be given the opportunity to make the right choices now that he has paid the price for his past trangressions and his slate wipe clean....

Also bolar was not the last Blade...in fact Delphine probably knew him and as all blades were, they were probably close at one time...if bolar was alive, he would want Parthurnaax brought to justice....

However, again i digress....I wish there was a quest to reconcile the Blades and Greybeards....perhaps a quest where you take Delphine to the Thoat of the world to meet Parthurnaax and after talking to him...Delphine makes amends with Paarthurnaax ending a ages old feud. That would be fantastuic if they would add that option because i would do that quest everytime if it was presented....doing that would be better then killing Parthurnaax...but as it stands now...killing him seems to be the only option.

As much as dragons have been a menace, they don't deserve the Tyranny of Parthurnaax forcing them to live a life they don't want...even the Dovah deserve the freedom of freewill to decide their own path in life.

No one even touches Odahviing and if they told me to kill him, they're dead. But I did kill the paar....now i wish i hadn't though. Oh well.

I prefer to let him live. He taught the mortals to use the Voice and in doing so enabled them to defeat Alduin and save the world. By the time the Akaviri Dragonguard arrived in Skyrim, Alduin had been banished and Paarthurnax was living peacefully on the top of the Throat of the World. Perhaps Alduin spent some time in Akavir before the Dragon War; it would explain if he could recognize Dragonsbane. But as far as we know Paarthurnax never fought the Akaviri Dragonguard or their successors, the Blades. If they somehow did reach the top of the mountain, he would have been entirely justified in killing them.

You'd wish you could kill them, but they would be marked Essential and you would do no such thing.

I'd completely abondon them then...

I just want the ability to decide for myself what "consequence" I'm willing to option. Right now.... there's no real consequences to anything. So that makes me feel - useless. And sometimes superfluous.