Paarthurnax or Blades?

Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:09 pm

What exactly do you mean by plot armor?

Not applying to the main character in this case, but.... http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor

In a nutshell: They can't be harmed/killed because they (will) serve a purpose in the overarching story of the Elder Scrolls series.
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Claudz
 
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Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:15 pm

THe blades being immortal merely means they will be in future games. YAY!
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NAkeshIa BENNETT
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:51 am

Not applying to the main character in this case, but.... http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor

In a nutshell: They can't be harmed/killed because they (will) serve a purpose in the overarching story of the Elder Scrolls series.
Well done.

You beat me to it.
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Miss Hayley
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:46 am

It's not just plot armor. It's Lore armor. The idea that some people think the blades are on the way out (whether you support paarthurnax or not) is silly. I've said before that the Blades are kind of like.. umm.. probably have a significant place in the writer's minds (or hearts, if you will). They've been around since Arena. The same pretty much goes for the Empire. At least some form of it will probably exist. It's one of the few things that seperates Elder Scrolls from typical fantasy lore. There aren't many Roman influences in a lot of fantasy. To get rid of all of these things is redefining TES too drastically. People get enthusiastic about Skyrim as it is now, whatwith it's Nord centricism and all that, and might end up supporting Greybeards along with Cloaks.. but it doesn't mean all of these other things are on the way out. Hence, why Delphine and Esbern have plot armor.
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Amie Mccubbing
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:48 am

THe blades being immortal merely means they will be in future games. YAY!
I can see it now: you're doing the MQ of TES VI, and get told to link up with the Blades. When you do, you get as 'allies' a pair of doddering, ancient wrecks who fight with a dagger in one hand and a colostomy bag in the other, yet somehow still can't die in combat...
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lauren cleaves
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:59 am

Also, if you kill "P-Nax", you can make boots out of him, as well as other stuff.
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Music Show
 
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Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:04 pm

I can see it now: you're doing the MQ of TES VI, and get told to link up with the Blades. When you do, you get as 'allies' a pair of doddering, ancient wrecks who fight with a dagger in one hand and a colostomy bag in the other, yet somehow still can't die in combat...
Well, not the Blades in Skyrim. Other younger Blades will replace them. I would so laugh if Mjoll became Grandmaster since she's essential.
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Ross
 
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Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:38 pm

This is really a debate? I mean, not only do the Blades essentially screw with you and jerk you around on a chain the whole time, but they don't even really help you much at all. Paarthurnax on the other hand, does far more for the player than anyone else in the main quest.

That's also not taking into account, that the present as we know it would not even exist were it not for him. Dragonrend would never have been created, Alduin would possibly never have been defeated the first time, and even if he was there would be no real way to beat him the second time, because Paarthurnax was the only one who remembered how he was even defeated.

The mere opportunity to even exact "justice" on Paarthurnax only exists because of his actions. He may have killed many in the past, but all those in the present technically owe him their current state of existence.
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kevin ball
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:43 am

THe blades being immortal merely means they will be in future games. YAY!

Does that mean Maven Black Briar and her son will too? No. This is just half-assing roleplaying.
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Alba Casas
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:37 am

Well, not the Blades in Skyrim. Other younger Blades will replace them. I would so laugh if Mjoll became Grandmaster since she's essential.

I think my next candidates will be Lydia, Erik the Slayer, and Marcurio.

I think Lydia, if you don't torture/kill her like most people, is kind of perfectly suited to be a leader. She's been involved with dragons almost as long as the dragonborn has.
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vicki kitterman
 
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Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:53 pm

I think my next candidates will be Lydia, Erik the Slayer, and Marcurio.

I think Lydia, if you want torture/kill her like most people, is kind of perfectly suited to be a leader. She's been involved with dragons almost as long as the dragonborn has.

She wasn't in my game. I left Lydia in the hall of Dragonsreach. Her poor AI and lack of companion orders only makes her a slightly armored mule for me.
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TIhIsmc L Griot
 
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Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:17 pm

Yeah, I don't blame you necessarily. I just mean she only becomes a follower because of the dragon quest at the beginning.
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Taylrea Teodor
 
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Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:34 pm

This is really a debate? I mean, not only do the Blades essentially screw with you and jerk you around on a chain the whole time, but they don't even really help you much at all. Paarthurnax on the other hand, does far more for the player than anyone else in the main quest.

That's also not taking into account, that the present as we know it would not even exist were it not for him. Dragonrend would never have been created, Alduin would possibly never have been defeated the first time, and even if he was there would be no real way to beat him the second time, because Paarthurnax was the only one who remembered how he was even defeated.

The mere opportunity to even exact "justice" on Paarthurnax only exists because of his actions. He may have killed many in the past, but all those in the present technically owe him their current state of existence.

You're speaking from the perspective of someone who already liked Paarth the minute you met him. Some players might be surprised he's a dragon, some might be "wtf?" Some might already dislike pacifists like the Greybeards as well. Do you address Arngier as "master" the minute you meet him? If so, that shows where your bias lies. You get an option to roleplay someone who doesn't even care to follow their Way of the Voice.
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Taylor Bakos
 
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Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:25 pm

Yeah, I don't blame you necessarily. I just mean she only becomes a follower because of the dragon quest at the beginning.

I immediately dismissed her. The followers of this game are missing the companion wheel that New Vegas used really well. I can't tell her to not kill anything in sight. I can't tell her to keep her distance. May as well bring her along and tell her to stay put at the start of the dungeon. I'll eventually wind up there ANYWAY.
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Life long Observer
 
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Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:35 pm

You're speaking from the perspective of someone who already liked Paarth the minute you met him. Some players might be surprised he's a dragon, some might be "wtf?" Some might already dislike pacifists like the Greybeards as well. Do you address Arngier as "master" the minute you meet him? If so, that shows where your bias lies. You get an option to roleplay someone who doesn't even care to follow their Way of the Voice.

No. I care little for the Greybeards' philosophy. I however know how to recognize facts. And the fact that we exist at all in our current iteration is entirely of his doing, whether you like it or not is irrelevant to that truth, thus he has earned my reprieve, unless he does something excessively stupid like the blades, who believed they could use me.
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ashleigh bryden
 
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Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:45 pm

No. I care little for the Greybeards' philosophy. I however know how to recognize facts. And the fact that we exist at all in our current iteration is entirely of his doing, whether you like it or not is irrelevant to that truth, thus he has earned my reprieve, unless he does something excessively stupid like the blades, who believed they could use me.

Fair enough. I think every choice has a price. I kind of doubt his plans are going to roll smoothly, even if you do spare him. Even Odaviing doesn't think he'll succeed with other dovah. At the very least, I expect more conflict with dragons, no matter which side you choose. It could be conflict with dragons as a Blade, or one with Paarth on your side again. Or maybe Paarth loses his mind. You never know. I just don't think it's that obvious. Kind of like in Dragon Age, if you spare Connor. If you've played it, he's sent off to Tevinter in the end. If they ever write that character in again, he'll probably be an evil mage.
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CHangohh BOyy
 
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Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:46 pm

Fair enough. I think every choice has a price. I kind of doubt his plans are going to roll smoothly, even if you do spare him. Even Odaviing doesn't think he'll succeed with other dovah. At the very least, I expect more conflict with dragons, no matter which side you choose. It could be conflict with dragons as a Blade, or one with Paarth on your side again. Or maybe Paarth loses his mind. You never know. I just don't think it's that obvious. Kind of like in Dragon Age, if you spare Connor. If you've played it, he's sent off to Tevinter in the end. If they ever write that character in again, he'll probably be an evil mage.

I chose a pragmatic approach in my opinion. The way I see it, the blades aren't going anywhere. And as long as Paarthurnax lives, whatever knowledge he may have, that could be used will still be available should the need arise, whether he is successfull at rallying other dragons to his way or not is just a bonus if they help me. And if he betrays me? Well, he isn't exactly remarkable when it comes to combat anyways, and he's already given me a deadly weapon against his own kind.
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Trey Johnson
 
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Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:21 pm

In morrowind, we had the option to finish the main quest without seeking Divine aid. It taxed us heavily, but we could do it. Could we possibly end Alduin without the assistance of the Blades?
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CxvIII
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:56 am

Super cool dragon Vs two washed up geriatrics.....


Tough choice.
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..xX Vin Xx..
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:49 am

Does that mean Maven Black Briar and her son will too? No. This is just half-assing roleplaying.

Maven and company aren't involved in any quests that are anything close to Paarthunax. Sure, you may want to kill her, but she's not saying "kill this person or I kick you out of Riften" (even if she implies it).

Think about it. In nearly all of the other quests in the game, you're given the choice of betrayal. The fact that you can't do so here when Bethesda would HAVE to see that many would like to stick a sword into the Blades is a sign that they need to be alive for something else later in the plot.
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Kathryn Medows
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:06 am

I kept Pax alive, i felt kind of bad for him, after all he did help out with Alduain. Also i wanted all the word wall locations from the Greybeards... :) There was no incentive for the Blades. I already found all the dragon locations anyway as they were alot easier than trying to work out which dungeons had word walls or not.
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maria Dwyer
 
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Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:19 pm

Maven and company aren't involved in any quests that are anything close to Paarthunax. Sure, you may want to kill her, but she's not saying "kill this person or I kick you out of Riften" (even if she implies it).

Think about it. In nearly all of the other quests in the game, you're given the choice of betrayal. The fact that you can't do so here when Bethesda would HAVE to see that many would like to stick a sword into the Blades is a sign that they need to be alive for something else later in the plot.

Keep holding that thought. Could a single DLC really involve all of the people they have marked Essential, or is it really just a workaround? Like every general at every camp for the imperials and the stormcloaks...
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Tiff Clark
 
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Post » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:42 pm

Maven and company aren't involved in any quests that are anything close to Paarthunax. Sure, you may want to kill her, but she's not saying "kill this person or I kick you out of Riften" (even if she implies it).

Think about it. In nearly all of the other quests in the game, you're given the choice of betrayal. The fact that you can't do so here when Bethesda would HAVE to see that many would like to stick a sword into the Blades is a sign that they need to be alive for something else later in the plot.

Yeah, and I think they intended Paarth to be likeable to boot. Which gives some players even more incentive to want to kill the Blades.

Yet, they don't give you that option.

You can kill the Emperor even. Or the DB. Yet, not Esbern. Definitely a reason for that.
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Susan Elizabeth
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:40 am

Yeah, and I think they intended Paarth to be likeable to boot. Which gives some players even more incentive to want to kill the Blades.

Yet, they don't give you that option.

You can kill the Emperor even. Or the DB. Yet, not Esbern. Definitely a reason for that.

Can't kill the thieve's guild either. Or the other factions.
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Laurenn Doylee
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:06 am

I should also mention that Esbern is also voiced by the most high profile actor in the game. Some people might be too young to appreciate his films, but he's definitely not even close to a throwaway character.
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Michelle davies
 
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