I found an old WIP for a pacifism mod while digging through my old files. I thought I'd gauge people's interest in such a thing before maybe doing something with it.

The idea is to bring a whole new challenge to the game, or just a new roleplaying option -- you start out as a monk who's taken a vow not to kill. The god you worship (I haven't figured out which one yet -- I'm open to suggestions) takes this vow seriously and always watches you.

If you go through the game without killing, you're rewarded each time you level with helpful spells/attributes to aid you on your mission. The rewards will be small at first. I had ideas for spells like mass demoralize, mass calm, etc. as you get to higher levels, and a big reward if you finish the main quest without bloodshed. I still have to work those out, so I'm open to suggestions.

If you do kill, you're cursed (haven't decided how yet), and stripped of the blessings you gained, with no chance to gain your god's favor again. I planned on making two versions: normal mode, where only killing NPCs counts, and hardcoe mode where you can't kill creatures either. I'd suggest playing it with Animal Realism to make your pacifist character's trip through Morrowind not totally svck.

I've already written the godwatching scripts. They require MWSE due to the advanced npc referencing features. I decided to polish them up and test them, and they work pretty well. There's only one problem: hardcoe mode means all creatures, including undead and daedra. There's no way to check creature type, so it's a blanket ban on killing them, even though those types don't count as "living."

I'd love to figure out a way to banish undead/daedra instead, but again -- can't check for creature type. Scripting individual creatures would mess with too many mods (and modded creatures wouldn't work). Scripting to check for individual creature IDs is not worth the effort (especially because modded creatures wouldn't work). So, moving on ...

The ban also extends to companions, but only creature companions. The original idea was, you're responsible for your pet's behavior. Since NPC followers are "sentient," they're responsible for their own behavior. Sure, you could just sign people up to do all your killing for you, but if you're roleplaying a pacifist, you wouldn't be a hypocrite, would you? Actually, I'd like people's thoughts on that. It's easy enough to change the script to ban NPC followers from killing as well. Maybe I'll extend the ban for hardcoe mode.

You are allowed hand-to-hand combat. I've already written the script to check for a target's fatigue and modify their behavior if you knock them out. Weak opponents will fold and stop fighting. NPCs/creatures with high willpower won't give up fighting, and bullheaded opponents (high strength), you'll need to knock down a few times to get them to stop coming at you. The more you knock them down, the lower an npc's disposition gets. Casting calm remains the better option, but the hand-to-hand option is there if you're in a tight spot with low magicka. I know it makes more sense for them to flee if you beat them down, but there's problems with Get/Mod/SetFlee. For one, the bloody combat music never stops, and for another, if there's more than one actor with the same ID (like ALL the creatures), it sets flee for all of them. I find a demoralize spell works better anyway (tried scripting one on the target -- no go).

What remains to be done is making it possible to finish the main quest without killing anyone. For example, this may require you to trick quest NPCs into thinking you've killed whoever they want killed. I wouldn't bother altering faction quests like the Morag Tong or Fighter's Guild, but I would make pacifist options for the Temple and Imperial Cult. If you're roleplaying as a pacifist, it means your options are limited, which means not joining violent factions. I haven't decided if I should extend the no-kill option to the Great Houses or not. I'd love to hear people's opinions on that.

So, finishing the main quest ... I agonized over changing the battle with Dagoth Ur. Should I make a no-kill option? Even if I do, I don't think I'll give a penalty for destroying him the original way. He's beyond mortal morality.

Again, I'm flip-flopping between finishing this mod or not. I planned on retiring from modding altogether because I don't have much spare time, but I might work on this after I finish revising my novel. I'd love to hear people's thoughts, particularly on modifying original quests, possible new quests, and rewards.

If your god hates killing he'll probably hate lying just as much. I would just make entirely separate options to main quests using speechcraft / barter checks. I'd be interested in a complete supermegahardcoe "You can't even punch or cast offensive spells on other npcs" mode. Also - I like the cut of your jib.

This is a great idea, though I'm thinking that one would have to modify a LOT of gameplay aspects to make such a mod truly worth using. There's a good deal of bloodshed involved in many of the quests in Morrowind. I don't think one can complete any of the faction questlines without taking at least one life.

Perhaps murder should be what this god frowns upon instead of killing? Though I suppose that somewhat diminishes the point behind the idea...

^{Shouldn't be too hard, maybe modify a few quests to have an alternate compromise ending. you'd need to change a couple main quests too, there's really only a few that require actual killing that can be easily changed (Dagoth Gares, House Redoran, and House Telvanni horator quests). You don't have to kill Dagoth Ur either, once you sever the connection to the heart, he's scripted to die once you cross the bridge leaving Akulahkan regardless.
I would however, rebalance creatures. Most have extremely high fatigue values, which makes hand-to-hand a real chore (undead have even higher). Balancing creature fatigue would make hand-to-hand very viable, as well as sleep spells (drain/damage fatigue).}

2c here. Premise sounds interesting but contradictory to conclusion of MW, don't know about Trib or Bloodmoon. Do you have to kill Almelexia to complete Trib? Would hope that you provide the char a spell or two at char creation to help him along. One can argue that killing daedra is neither killing nor murder because one of the in game books writes that daedra don't die but are banished back to their own plane of existence.

Other question is how rigid is the god you'd use? If the char has no way to regain his god's favor, the concept begins to feel like just a twist on the idea of an iron man game playthrough. Might there be then another god who could step into the breach, as it were, if the char should falter?

His first incarnation, yes, you do. And while this may not actually be 'killing' him, the game sees it at such.


Yes.


Again, engine limitation, as addressed in the OP.


I truly love the idea of a pacifist character, however I don't think it can be easily realized with the what you have to work with. I think you'd have to check for individual IDs for it to be done correctly. As for the god, is it to be a god from lore? This is just out to curiosity, it wouldn't mean I'd never play it, though I would like to keep things as lore-friendly as possible. Another thing to consider – which might be too much work to force onto the PC – is food. Does the god care if you eat animals that were killed?

As far as NPC companions, hiring them is probably enabling killing. Even if they were to follow you and protect you of their own accord, I think it's still you allowing killing for your benefit. Most companions have an option to not fight I think though. Of course, if they were defending only themselves, it might be okay for them, but I don't think they will even fight unless the PC is in combat usually, and one would have to wonder why a pacifist would team up with one willing to kill if they have the choice. Even if they had no choice, I'd imagine the god to want you to force the NPC not to kill. Of course, if the NPC has the option to fight but not kill, or just support the PC with healing, it shouldn't be a problem I imagine.

On that note, 0 damage, custom-enchanted stamina draining weapons seem like a reasonable option as well, though on-use enchantments would be easier since you'd not have to filter out weapons, if you can even do that with MWSE. Leaving some way to for the user to easily modify the scripts to account for modded creatures and such could be an option. As for allowing NPCs to kill in either mode, if possible, some method of configuration would probably be ideal for a player.

Tweaking quests is certainly going to be needed, but it is reasonable to assume that there are some things you just can't do as well.

There is also the fact that you have to kill that one Dagoth in order to be cursed with corprus.

This fact plus others makes the not killing thing a bit hard because these kills are a core part of the game. Here is an idea, make it so that certain high level people are allowed as kills. If the god doesnt like killing, it probably doesnt like the corruptive power that the Dagoths use either. You may not be able to check creatures, but you can check for specific IDs. Since there are only a few high ranking people, it shouldnt be hard to just allow them to die.

Few? There's a whole bunch of side quests that send you to kill stuff.

I like the idea, but I imagine you'd have to change a whole lot to make it actually rewarding to play.



Not exactly like that, he'd have to nerf down strength and artificially increase inventory capacity, because weapon can't cause 0 damage, 1 is a minimum iirc, if not for minimum definitely for maximum, otherwise eventually we'd one hit kill anything weak. But I like the idea of using weapons only for enchantments. Maybe weapons with on use magic? It doesn't require skill and with MCP you can cast 'em without sheating the weapon.

I don't understand what you mean with the inventory, or why a low damage weapon would one-hit kill weak enemies. But yes, you can only have a 0-1 range at minimum in the CS, but if you edit a weapon in Enchanted Editor, it works just fine. If you strike someone with a weapon edited in this way, there is no blood or hit sound, but it still counts as a crime, initiates combat, and enchantments still work. I just tested it, and it's actually really cool. I don't imagine minor damage would be much of a problem unless the scripts check for health change, and while avoiding killing is one thing, avoiding all harm is another, though still an interesting challenge.

Aah, you can efficiently edit with Enchanted Editor? I didn't know that. Cool, thanks. I only ever used it for fixing stuff hehe.

EDIT: on the side note, imho paficism would indeed be avoiding any harm whatsoever.

Eh, I can usually find my way around. I like poking around, though I don't know what a lot of the stuff is, exactly. The most advanced thing I've done is remove the X from a mark spell from my map and add extra travel records. I generally only use it if I require it, but it can be faster for some things.

Not sure if being unable to hit normally will interfere with skill progress though. I know I've seen the enchantment fire even when the weapon seemed to miss, however, but I'd imagine it'd be more likely to hit if your skill is higher.

Oh, and what was that stuff with the inventory and such?

And as a side note, you could see tiring someone as minor harm, since it will force their body to use more resources to recover. I guess.

A lot of good replies here.

Mortimer, I imagine an Elder Scrolls god who didn't want you to kill (and yes, I want to use a lore friendly one, if possible) has their own reasons for forbidding you for taking a life, perhaps not completely in line with human morality, so s/he may not care what you do to avoid it, including covering for someone other people want dead at all costs. What I'm saying is the kind of lie matters, like harboring refugees in your basemant during a genocidal war and lying to the dictator's troops when they knock on your door.

They way I originally invisioned your role, is that spilling mortal blood somehow makes you unclean for this god's purpose. This isn't exactly a nice god. There are no truly nice gods in the Elder Scrolls, some are just a little more benevolent than others. That leads me to the world itself. It's a brutal one. The game was designed so you could hack-and-slash your way through it, so yes, it's going to take a lot of work to make this mod worthwhile. I'm the kind of person who takes years to make a single mod, paying meticulous attention to detail. If I do decide to tackle this, you may not see it for a while. I won't just throw something up there slap-dash.

I think including exclusions for the non-mortal evils you have to vanquish is the best way to go. That would include scripting exclusions for high level "bosses" such as Dagoth Ur, the ash vampires, and Amalexia.

I like the idea of 0 damage weapons, probably blunt weapons like staffs, enchanted with stamina draining effects. I could make some of these available in the game. Also, the script checks for NPC death after being attacked, rather than minor changes in health damage. It's too easy to accidentally throw one more punch than necessary. I didn't plan on making it that strict, but if that's requested for hardcoe mode, I could alter the script to no bloodshed -- ever. Also, yes, I will give the player a couple starting spells to help you survive after you get off the boat.

As for not eating meat, or using animal products, I'm not sure I want to impose that limitation, especially since potions might be essential for a pacifist's survival. If you want to play a vegan pacifist, I may just leave that up to individual roleplaying. There's plenty people who play whole games where they ban themselves from stealing. The only reason I decided to make a mod for a no-kill run, is because it's not currently possible to complete the game without doing so. I'd tackle every quest that's reasonable to change, including side quest npcs you find standing in the road.

Asuru, you've convinced me to extend the ban to humanoid companions as well. All I have to do is remove the creature check and no followers can kill. You're right, it can be exploited too easily, letting a bunch of npcs do all the dirty work for you.

As for losing the god's favor, I did imagine hardcoe mode like a type of ironman challenge. In this case, you lose the mod's magical benefits, but the quest options remain open. You can continue playing as an ordinary character. I suppose I could add a penance quest to normal mode. What I can do is implement a kill count. If you've accidentally killed one NPC, you can regain the god's favor through the penance quest.

Nothing, I was probably overcomplicating, if damage was to be set to minimum weapon skill and strength would have to go down, but problem with strength is that it controls how much you can carry around. So it's probably best not to mess with those stats at all. Besides player can always enchant equipment that lowers the strength and adds the feather effect.

And nope, on strike enchantments definitely don't work if you miss. Unless you can somehow change that as well that I don't know about it. But 1 damage shouldn't multiply that much that it should be too much harm, anyway.

I like the idea of staves being the main weapons for that. I suggest making some shorter staves for one hand that could be used with shields?

I can see what's available. I'm not a modeler by any stretch, but I've dabbled. I'll keep it mind, but I won't add new resources and stuff until I have a fully working beta.

Anyway, I forgot to address the rebalancing creatures issue ... the main issue is conflicting with Animal Realism, which I don't want to do, since I'd rather recommend that mod as a compliment to this one. During my test run, I took my level 25 character, set hand-to-hand to 100, and I punched out a guar -- a freakin guar. I'd say if you want to play this like shaolin monk, it should take practice. Maybe I'll stick a training dummy somewhere so your low-level character can practice without getting eaten alive.

You may find this useful
http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=1865

I wasn't really asking for sake of veg*, but just wanting to know what the god would think in your idea. Like if you were to find dead guars, for example. Of course, if you really get into it, the god might not like you using it if it were killed a human, mer or beast race. You won't find many dead animals or animals fighting without modding it in anyway, but there are for sure dead rats and guars present in small numbers in the vanilla game.


Oh no, I influenced someone. Your mod might explode now. Penance quest is an interesting idea though. No bloodshed would be interesting, but I agree it would be easy to accidentally damage someone with the fists.


Oh right, I see. I guess I was thinking that none of that would matter, since you're not trying to do damage anyway, though I see the consequences of high strength now.


I'll pay more attention, since my current weapon with my current character is the stock Icicle and Icebreaker, but I'm pretty sure I've seen them (even with older characters) 'miss', with no blood or anything, but the enchantment still hit. I found it quite odd, which is why I remember it. Never thought to report it as a bug to the MCP though, for some reason. Unless blood and hit sounds just fail at times. Similarly, I've seen weapons hit and the enchantment not fire, even with enough charge, so it wouldn't surprise me if there is something off about it all.


I'd hope that at 100 hand-to-hand, I too could take down a guar. You could just recommend a practice dummy mod, just like you're doing with Animal Realism. Dummies, like mannequins, will probably get updated eventually, and they will probably usually replace all the existing, non-functional ones anyway.

You don't really have to worry about raising H2H. If you have it as a major and specialty it goes up amazingly fast. You can go from 35 to 65 before leaving the Seda Neen area. At 80-90, you can take on Golden Saints or anything else because of the rapid stagger effect. Groups are always a problem but one-on-one is not.

Oh, I meant for my comment to sound as if it should be normal to be able to take out a guar, while I thought Stuporstar meant that it wasn't, or just too easy to do.

No, I just thought it was funny, like the scene where Conan punches out a camel.

Yeah, this is my biggest problem with H2H (after being a fan of it for a while). It's brutal yet, at the same time, a little silly looking. Punching out a Guar is kind of funny but punching a steel armored knight with bare hands just seems wrong.

I believe there is a mod that will cause problems for you should you decide to go around punching stuff with bare knuckles. I think Fliggerty made it.

Yeah, I'm going to need Fliggerty's expertise on this. I'll have to make a post on GHF about my scripting problems. I now remember why I shelved this mod, running the "Ald Deadroth test." I picked this spot because it has other npcs killing each other. What I forgot about was other npc's summoned creatures. They trigger the companion watch because, as far as I can tell, there's no way to tell who's following who. Their current AI package returns 3, and that's it.

I tested it further spawning rats in a Telvanni town, since the guards there all summon greater bonewalkers. Yep, the moment the bonewalker killed the rat, the "death detected" message triggered. Dammit.

Yes, Improved Hand to Hand. The only thing wrong with it for this thread's purpose is that it doesn't do fatigue damage so it's a killing skill. Fliggerty made a patch to add some fatigue damage but I'm not sure how that ended up. On the the other hand, since Fliggerty seems to be able to do just about anything, maybe he could be persuaded to adapt that mod if this WIP goes anywhere.

oops, a little late.

Well could it be possible to just ignore the companions all together then? I think it would be cooler that way anyways as you could use advanced tactics to take down enemies. But that's just my two cents

I'll definitely look at Improved Hand-to-Hand, because I could adapt his scripts ... if there's any hope for the other issues crippling this idea. I mean, if all else fails altering the quests for roleplaying might be nice to have, but changing the game mechanics itself is more fun (to me), and part of the point why I even made the attempt.

When I have some time, I'll fiddle with the scripts some more, and go to GHF for help. Maybe it can't be done the way I want, but I'll never know unless I try.

I'd still like to hear people's ideas for such a mod. Don't think I'm killing it yet.