I'm playing hardcoe Mode, so this might be coloring my opinions on this a little, but yikes.

Whole time I'm thinking 'Oh, Pack Rat sounds right up my alley, I mean most of what I'm carrying would benefit from it, and now my ammo has weight."

But then I look to get it and whoooah, 70 in BARTER required? What, am I supposed to pick between being remotely competent in staying alive or dedicate myself to playing a trader?

Nevermind that Barter, of all things, seems about as relevant to carrying stuff as Speech or Lockpicking.

You do know that level 8 isn't the only level you can get it at, right? That's just the first level available. Get it at a later level if you want it.

Oh, yeah, I totally know that.

It's still a level 8 skill.

And, come on, Barter?

probably to prevent people from making supped up charecters. this way you'll have to sacrafice points toward barter and not another which will preventing you from getting another super benificial perk.

Sorta a silly thing to do. I can't even get behind that as a reason. I mean, people who play it on PC are going to do that anyway, ya know?

And I say this as a guy that was glad to see the new Grim Reaper's Sprint, because holy crap it was overpowered in Fallout 3. The FPS game in New Vegas is much tighter, on the other hand, so it's a better fit.

If it is a matter of 'balance' then I'd have to say it's over-balanced. What with the kinda heavy-handed balancing of traits at character creation and the numerous well-deserved tweaks elsewhere, this perk ... I think it asks enough to outweigh its use.

Dedicating oneself to Barter that early in the game, to that extent, it's a bit much. I don't know how New Vegas is going to play out, but in Fallout 3 I never felt like I was hurting for caps enough to ever worry about the Barter skill. Right now I'm barely in Nipton and sitting on 3,600 caps without really thinking about wealth. I think this game is also at a pace where I'm never going to be hurting for money - definitely well into Level 8 territory, at least - further reinforcing that the perk is backed by a very lackluster skill.

I'd even say to ditch it entirely in Fallout 4, it's so useless. Merge it with Speech.

Barter is much more useful in New Vegas. I have already run into numerous opportunities where I could have come out a lot better if I had a better Barter skill. In addition, everything is more expensive in New Vegas than it was in FO3 and money much harder to come by at first.

As to why Barter is associated with Pack Rat, it is because Pack Rat is the skill merchants have to cram and fit all their merchandise into the small bags atop their brahmin. Because of the nature of their job carrying a lot of goods to transport and sell (Barter) they become great at squeezing extra space out of their backpacks and pockets.

Also, the game assumes that if you need a bunch of extra carrying weight, you are collecting and hauling a lot of stuff for the sole purpose of selling it for profit - hence, Bartering is your endgame and the activity you are engaged in. It all makes perfect sense to me.

This.

And they do this because if they assumed it was for hardcoe mode people, you'd get non-hardcoe mode people using it for this purpose and it being a massive OP.

Since this is more of a roleplaying game than F3 ever was.... YES. ^_^

I think 70 Barter is a bit too high. Having it tied to the Barter skill is fine, but having a requirement of 40-50 or so would be better, in my opinion.

Playing Tetris taught me to cram things into spaces more efficiently.

Anyway, I'll buy that 'being a trader teaches you to pack better!' rationalization as soon as I have my own brahmin for the practice.

But all this aside, let's not pretend for one moment that being a pack rat is the sole domain of the trader.


Show of hands - who keeps a little of everything that might be useful on the road?


Oh, hello there - everyone ever.

At least things are more comfortable with Strong Back now that I have it, but ... yeah, Pack Rat seems weird to me, still.

Barter is pretty sweet in NV, there have been plenty of times I've used it and I don't regret boosting it at all.
Plus, packrat rocks.

So svck it up wussy

I think this is just one of the perks that has rather high skill requirements. Then again, there aren't too many later perks that interest me, so it's just a matter of choosing when to go back and get certain perks for me. Granted, I'll never have a 70 barter.

I don't.

my (light) combat and exploration load is about 98-105 Lbs.
When I am just looking for new places, or traveling around.

R.I combat armor MK.II w/helm
Anti Material rifle with 100 rounds of hand made ammo.

Some stims.
5-8 bottles of water
Some Big horn steak.

My combat/normal load is about 168 Lbs
Above +
More stims and doctors bags/hydra.
Little more food.
Cowboy rifle with stock and custom action.

My heavy combat load is (190-205 Lbs)
Above + 60-70 Stims total
Mini gun replaces cowboy rifle, bring about 3K rounds total.50/50 normal and AP rounds.
Lots of food.
Doctors bags and hydra (at least 4)

Normally I run with my middle load out, when traveling some where I use my light, or drop the medium armor for light armor.

Only twice have I went in with my heavy load.

P.S

Super mega spoiler!!

Having a Volkswagen taught me that. They're a bit uncomfortable...

I would like to point at that its very possible to have a skill at 70 before level 8, and still not be combat gimped.

Level 1, say you go like this

S 6
P 5
E 6
C 4
I 9
A 5
L 5

Tag barter, gun and repair. Each skill should be at or higher than 15 before you tag them. Thats starting at 30 for each. Then you get to add points right away.

Just go 10 / 5 barter/ guns then 10 / 5 barter repair (or guns w/e) and you should have 70 barter by level 6.

It depends on how thin you spread yourself. How many skills are you boosting? I find 5 to be pretty doable, even if your SPECIALs aren't great for the skills you want to do.

High INT is pretty important though...

I ended up with 50 Barter by L8 on my current character, however I was spreading points a bit or it would be significantly higher (I also raise Speech a lot early, for one). It also wasn't tagged, instead I marked Survival/Speech/Repair and dumped points there first until they hit 50. I am trying something different and my chosen combat skill (EW in this case) is still quite low, however the high Barter (60 if I wear the merchant clothes I 'acquired') enabled me to get good equipment, including some Mk II Combat Armor, for a good price so I can afford to take some hits while whittling away at foes for now.

I also managed to pinch some higher-quality swag off the tables at the shop in Freeside (PROTIP: drag it in back where the guards cannot see you, then pocket it), and while I don't have ready access to spares I can craft Repair Kits at will to keep them in good shape until I manage to get a steady supply of parts.

If you want to have a high Barter early on, I recommend the Good Natured trait, which gives +5 to that and some other skills while hitting the combat ones with a -5. Since this means your combat skills will svck for a while, I highly recommend getting a companion ASAP. I chose ED-E, since I already had the parts on hand and he has a ridiculous firing range which lets him kill some things along I-15 before you even see them. Since he 'flies' he does quite well against the ants and scorpions as they cannot reach him, which gives you a leg up in getting to the Outpost and Nipton.

I have 75 barter 75 speech and 75 guns atm and I am so glad I decided to go for barter right from the start. I didnt know about all the convo challenges it comes up with and I am loving it.

Ugh.... I had to vote, svck it up. Here's my take on it... for me personally, barter is not a priority for me when it comes to leveling things up, but it's challenging me to make some early sacrifices in the game. I am levelling my barter skill up so I can take that perk at first chance. Part of New Vegas is making choices, far from the way F3 was, and so far I'm rather enjoying it.

Honestly I'd say svck it up. Pack Rat is an extremely useful perk that ought to have a high risk vs. reward. Barter is not as useless as it once was in Fallout 3- After maxing it out late my first playthrough I found a ton of skill checks for free or discounted quest steps as well as much better payouts throughout the game. On top of that, there is the obvious incentive of better deals with all merchants which made me a noticeably higher return than Fallout 3.

It is a viable skill, just like any other.

I see nothing wrong with making Barter useful.

I'm gonna make this it's own post as well, but Pack Rat is pretty Overpowered.
I took Strong back and Pack Rat thinking that 70 Barter was a bit much but would help with my income problems and that it would be an extra 100 weight extra on the things I scavenge most...
...
...
That's not the half of it.
Unlike Strong Back, Pack Rat works for your companions as well. Half weight all around. And it makes some inventory weigh next to nothing (In Fact, Coyote Tobacco does weigh nothing now)
And for you gun toters, that's double the ammo for the same weight cost.

This perk went from a "erm, I dunno" to a No Brainer in .02 seconds flat.

It's a svck it up vote from me. I've came across more barter skill checks than I have ever thought possible and I am nowhere near the end. It's now a very useful skill. 70 barter is a lot, but that is one hell of a perk when you think about it. Just like VashTyphoon said.