A previous topic about the trifold flag got me to thinking about this. I am putting this in the spoiler section because maybe there are people who haven’t found the Chinese sub yet.

So the Soul Survivor is an American and I don’t think it’s too big of an assumption to say he and his wife are patriotic Americans and love their country, and considering the cultural and political climate at the time they went into the vault they most likely hate communist China.

So considering that from the point of view of the Soul Survivor the war just happened like a week ago and in the aspect of playing a role playing game, isn’t the most viable response from this particular character when encountering this Chinese sub commander that actually fired NUKES that helped destroy your home and country, is to kill him or at the very least let him rot in that sub? Why help him get back to China?

Maybe he realizes both America and China shared fault and isn't so patriotic anymore?

because the war is over, and even enemy soldiers are, like you, victims and survivors of the greatest horror to ever befall mankind?

Well in reference to the trifold flag, I wish there was more to it. It was a symbol of honor given to Nate for his services before the bombs fell. There should have been a better way to store the item then in the "junk" category as stated in the other thread. However an intentional insult would be incorrect. Last time I made an American flag for my home in Fallout 4 it looked nothing like the real American flag. in fact lore wise, as a Canadian I should be pissed the lore has us falling to the US and becoming part of its commonwealth. As a resident of Alaska however I grin every time I see a reference to the liberation of anchorage from the hands of the Chinese.

But to your point about the submarine. Yes in our character's eyes we wake up as if mere days have gone by. Shaun as we know it is still a baby. And we remember the nightmares we probably had in our cryo slumber of the fast approaching blast from the bombs. All very clear and recent memories. Now we come across a submarine, hidden right under our noses in the harbor of Boston. Not just in our backyard... in our livingroom. It was one of many methods the Chinese used to get the bombs to wipe us out.

My first thought would be rage against this captain and the crew. Should have shot him right then and there or at least blew the hell out of his submarine.

But then I ask myself a couple of questions. Who is he? What did he lose? Do I spare him out of pity? Or kill him out of rage. After all he could very well have been the one who destroyed our lives. I may be wrong but was the bombs dropped in what is now the glowing sea from aircraft? or submarines?

In the end I show him pity. He saw and lived through 200+ years of destruction he caused. Stranded aboard his sub while his own men become feral. He witnessed the world burn and the fallout from it. He saw it tear apart our nation, knowing full well we were doing the same to his. And that is what we often forget. We were not the only ones nuked. This whole time all he wanted to do was get home, knowing that it was likely lost. Knowing that ruin was all that was left. That did not stop him from wanting to go home and try and make a life once more.

Maybe I am rambling here but I felt sorry for him. I can not even fathom the guilt those who dropped the two big ones on japan during WWII felt. Knowing countless innocent people just died. imagine knowing that the same damage you just caused to someone else was also done to you? But your stuck behind enemy lines? Never to go home?

So I gave the captain that chance.

It may have been a blink of an eye to us. But to him it had been many years. I think he lived through enough guilt. And that is what my characters realize.

Plus... can you destroy the sub and still get off in time before it explodes?

The reality is that soldiers don't cause wars, the politicians do. I don't blame the Captain for carrying out his orders any more than I would hold it against a US sub captain. It may seem very ... quaint, but I once read a book titled "All's Quiet on the Western Front", and it was a view of WWI from the eyes of an ordinary German soldier. Reading it was something of an experience all of its own. Much later, I also read "Das Boot", and really that's what I thought of when I encountered our Chinese Captain.

Finally, I read a book that I believe was named "The Raider" a true story of an armed merchant raider (the SMS Wolf) of the German Navy in WWI that terrorized the South Pacific. another good look at real people in real conflicts.

I know the first two books that I mentioned are fiction, and yet they hold a veracity that seems to transcend their genre to give a glimpse into "the other side". Change the names a bit, and they could be about soldiers and sailors from Cleveland, or Toronto, or Sydney.

Once a war is over, brave warriors should be able to share a beer no matter what side they served on...

Points up at Neildarkstar, exactly .....And if you happen to read the male SS speech (shakes fist at GK) he knew the horror, and was not exactly behind what was coming. Which was probably what landed him in a test vault.

Unlike most protagonists, the player character has a pretty set personality. I think you do have an option of Die Commie! But I think the other options meld better with the Sole Survivor's personality. The opening intro is this (highlighting mine):

This isn't a mindless jingoistic zealot. This is a person who loves his country, but isn't afraid to look upon it critically.

Plus in real life I think warriors tend to have respect for one another. Rommel was respected by the Allies. Red Baron was America's enemy in WW1, but that doesn't stop us from buying his pizza.

I said it before your model is quite funny and damn clever, I do hope they make a few more.

Then you have the Robots on board that ship that plan to attack China. They might make it and they might not, but it will likely take hundreds of years to get there. By the time they get there, China will be a distant memory of foolish people that caused the destruction of the world.

Haven't heard of All Quiet's on the Western Front for about 20 years. The most memorable part of that story for me is the main character's night with the French soldier.

Well, from my SS's perspective, the Admiral had to live with the fact that he caused so much destruction, pain, and suffering for 200 years; all locked up by himself inside of a Submarine. Not only that, he had to watch his comrades slowly go insane. He has suffered enough and at least deserves to go home to whatever is left of his homeland.

Get over the flag business, US developed games have been shooting Chinese, Koreans, Russians and various flavours of arabs for years, so a non-realistic US flag is a minor issue on the political correctness scale.

As for the Chinese NPC issue, the citizenry of the US were chemically and conceptually indoctrinated for the war against the Chinese, as evidenced in FO3.

Ultimately, it's post-apocalyptica...the only person you have to justify your killing or not killing to is you.

I might point out in relation to the crew of Enola Gay, there wasn't much talk of guilt, and most said they'd do it again...be wary of applying modern perspectives on historical situations.

I fixed the sub then ate him, because free nuclear sub and hat.

Well, ya kinda lost me there... Of course I'm a bit of a historical situation myself, so it figgers, eh?

They were professionals, with one job to do...in fact, there was an entire Mixed Bomber Group established to do it, so their attitudes aren't surprising.

Because as an advlt civilian in post-apocalyptic world created by war between countries, your character very much realized that they were all political victims.

Captain Zao had been turned into a ghoul; a human with dead melted skin and won't naturally age and die. Now he's just nobody with dirty history that he most likely regret. I'd say he deserve to die only if he's holding extreme patriotism and hatred for your character's nationality after all this time.

It's a different world. People are different, attitudes are different, and really sometimes it just doesn't make sense to me the way things are. I worked with a Chenault... a cousin to Claire Chenault of the Flying Tigers. Him, I could understand. The crew of the Enola Gay, them I understand. I see no reason for them to feel guilt.

Further comments made and deleted to avoid... complications...

I get your point, but by the time you find the sub you've been in the Post-War world for a while. It's pretty evident that the war is over and that no one won. Is there a concern that if he gets back he'll tell his leaders what the US is currently like and they'll try to muster up an army to claim it? Possible I guess. Honestly we don't even know how the Chinese accept or not the ghouls among them. He might get shot on sight.

That said, it does give an opportunity to get back at China just one more time, so I can fully understand some role-plays going that way.

The world has fundamentally changed, and the Sole Survivor obviously realizes that. The captain of the sub wasn't 'responsible' for the bombing. He was a soldier carrying out orders, just like countless other soldiers. Pinning the blame on him and taking out your anger on him would be pointless. That being said, you have a choice there. You can kill the guy if you feel that this is the best and most 'patriotic' thing to do. Patriotism is a basically meaningless word in the wasteland though.

Well for me the pre war US isn't exactly the beacon of freedom of the Fallout world, its not hard to see the Enclave mindset coming from the pre war US as despite its claims on democracy. So my first character wasn't a flag waving patriot, but knew enough about how the world worked that she could parrot the right phrases and pass as a patriotic hard liner. Post war she just doesn't care about that [censored] up world any more and is purely focused on saving her child. The Captain got lucky, on another day she might just of shot him.

What's weird is that the Chinese guy still gives two craps about communism and capitalism after being stuck in a faulty submarine for 200 years. We still get the "you aren't so bad for a capitalist" type lines.


If the PC can get over the indoctrination in a few weeks, it seems strange submarine guy can't in 200 years.

Well, you can assume that Zao doesn't get out much.

Perhaps, but:

A-> The war is over.

B-> People on opposing sides don't necessarily hate each other. They fight each other because of governments, politics and such.

C-> Empathy (or the lack thereof) is a big part of what makes us human.

The war is over, everyone lost, mutually assured destruction (MAD) was realized

As an ex fbm sailor in the Cold War I know we would have launched with no regrets given the order. And the world would have been gone when we surfaced. There was no winning anything, just assured mutual destruction.

Did I ever hate the Russians and Chinese? No. Nothing ever happened so all is good. Nothing but respect for their service members as they would have done the same.

If I came across one by some weird miracle after the world was destroyed would I hate them? I don't know.

You can actually blow his face away like I did. I killed his so beloved crew first though