[IDEA] Pax Telvanni

Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:02 pm

A comment in the RoHT thread made me think of this: what if the PC, as a Telvanni leader, wanted to smooth over rough waters between various factions he/she belonged to and the Telvanni? I'm thinking especially of the Temple, Morag Tong, and Ashlanders. For those a little more broad minded I am thinking of the Mages' Guild, Thieves' Guild (since you can't join the Cammona Tong), the Twin Lamps, and maybe the Fighters' Guild for those Battle Mage types. The Imperial Cult and Imperial Legion seem less likely. The idea would be some quests and dialogue for a more moderate Archmagister who wants to strenghten ties with the other factions the protagonist belongs to.

Would this be better as my own mod or should it belong to LGNPC, a modded RoHT, or maybe even BuUL? I should make clear that I'm pretty much a rookie still at modding. My only endeavor into these waters so far was a simple item modification (Enchantable Gloves of the Bal Molagmer available at PES). So I'm venturing deeper into the mod world with this idea. I'm not sure I'll take on this project if it is completely on my own. But if there is another soul or two who like the idea of a more diplomatic Telvanni overlord and would be willing to help with this project this could see the light of day.

Another thought I have which could be included with this mod or maybe even a separate mod is to change the titles bestowed in the various factions for female protagonists. Archmagistrix instead of Archmagister, Matriarch instead of Patriarch, etc. I'm not sure if this is hardcoded or something that has already been accomplished but it is something that I've thought about whenever I play a female protagonist.

If you like my ideas and want to help out or give advice I'm open to your thoughts. Like I said I'm pretty new to modding still. I like the idea of adding something worthwhile after having gotten to take advantage of so many other mods in my last play through a couple years ago. But if I'm all on my own it may just be vaporware notions. Please chime in!
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Donald Richards
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:35 pm

I like this idea.
The Archmagister should be able to lead in whatever direction he/she thinks is wisest.
(It should probably be an addon for RoHT, though.)

It would be very politically useful to strengthen the House's ties with several of the other factions.
Aryon would likely be in support of this, but convincing the other magelord's could be tricky, depending on the faction in question.
(Certain factions could be allied with, but getting the other magelord's to support you for it would be difficult, others might be impossible,
but some might be easier than you would suspect.)

House Telvanni can actually be suprisingly tolerant of some things, as long as it doesn't cause them any trouble.
They're not so much evil, as just very eccentric and amoral, some more so than others... with a few exceptions.

For example, House Telvanni is only on very loose terms with the Tribunal Temple,
they only give them a tiny place under the council house, not even their own building, let alone a proper temple.

They might actually be capable of being friendlier towards the Imperial Cult, as long as they don't get in the way.
The Legion however... possibly, if the player took steps to smooth over relations, and it was convienient for the House.
The Mages Guild could be put to use for the House's purposes, if the player doesn't destroy it in RoHT.

With regards to female faction rank names, it would be easy to do, they're not hard-coded.
You could easily make that as a small seperate plugin.
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Isabell Hoffmann
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:10 pm

Okay, I've finished installing Morrowind on my laptop for testing. Now (for the first time in a couple years) I have the CS up and running again. Would it make a friendlier Telvanni quest and dialogue mod easier or harder if I made it dependent on RoHT?

I think I may make the female faction ranks mod first to cut my teeth as I ease back into modding. I can see it is easy to change the name of the ranks. If I'm not mistaken, though, it would change it throughout the game so male NPCs would be identifying themselves with feminine ranks. That just reverses the issue I have right now. Is it possible to have, say, an Ashalander faction and an Ashlander_Female faction and via script align the NPC (and PC) with the appropriate gender? Or am I on the wrong track with this? Maybe I should start another thread on the female rank titles to keep from derailing my own thread.
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saharen beauty
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:01 pm

As I recall, most mentioning of the player's faction ranking in dialog is already done using the "%PCrank" function.
For example, "Hello, %PCrank", which would appear ingame as: Hello, Master; Hello, Archmagister; Hello, Archmagistrix; etc.

So if you were to change the names of the ranks themselves, those would all change automatically.
Rare instances where a specific rank for the player was mentioned could be easily changed,
but wouldn't have to be if said rank name was already gender-neutral.
This task may not be as hard as you expect.

Either way, it will give you good practice for dialog editing.
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Elena Alina
 
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Post » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:50 am

I'm going to start a WIP thread on the female ranks. I think you're right that this more simple goal is good for cutting teeth. I just don't want to bog down this thread with an off-topic issue that continues to be focussed on.

I want to feel out the Morrowind fanbase on the idea of a more diplomatic Archmagister in this thread. Even in a best case scenario it may take me a few days for the female rank title mod to be finished. This should give some time for this thread to gauge the interest in whether Pax Telvanni has any interest from other Telvanni players.
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Brιonα Renae
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:51 pm

A comment in the RoHT thread made me think of this: what if the PC, as a Telvanni leader, wanted to smooth over rough waters between various factions he/she belonged to and the Telvanni? I'm thinking especially of the Temple, Morag Tong, and Ashlanders. For those a little more broad minded I am thinking of the Mages' Guild, Thieves' Guild (since you can't join the Cammona Tong), the Twin Lamps, and maybe the Fighters' Guild for those Battle Mage types. The Imperial Cult and Imperial Legion seem less likely. The idea would be some quests and dialogue for a more moderate Archmagister who wants to strenghten ties with the other factions the protagonist belongs to.

Would this be better as my own mod or should it belong to LGNPC, a modded RoHT, or maybe even BuUL? I should make clear that I'm pretty much a rookie still at modding. My only endeavor into these waters so far was a simple item modification (Enchantable Gloves of the Bal Molagmer available at PES). So I'm venturing deeper into the mod world with this idea. I'm not sure I'll take on this project if it is completely on my own. But if there is another soul or two who like the idea of a more diplomatic Telvanni overlord and would be willing to help with this project this could see the light of day.


I like the idea of a more... political house Telvanni, and the conflicts that would arise in such an alliance would certainly be fun to play with. Most masters of the great house believe the house is for the individual though, so getting this to work logically may be difficult. It would likely involve getting an individual town to host another faction, and attempt to spread the benefits from that point(as sadrith mora did with allowing wolverine hall to be built). There would clearly be towns who would oppose, and so the challenge begins to make everyone happy.

This sounds out of the scope of LGNPC(making things more like the lore, telvanni in general don't like politics) and BuUL(growing tel uvirith out, not so much tel mora), so RoHT would be a better choice.
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Nicholas
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:31 pm

I've never played RoHT as the ruthless type (can you tell by this mod idea, lol). Might it be possible to adapt the Edwina and Skink quests from RoHT and revisit them as mage members who are also in House Telvanni such as the PC would be for those playing this mod?

What if in addition to making the mod dependent on RoHT there also was a BuUL component where after cementing a relationship, say the Mages' Guild for this example, that the appropriate dwelling in BuUL gained status and maybe even functionality? New members of the guild as an example. Maybe Edwina or some other notable Mages' Guild member move to Tel Uviirth possibly with new quests. I remember when I played the original BuUG I was a little disappointed that Tel Uvirith was mostly eye candy with little functionality. I like the idea of tying in a BuUL Tel Uvirith as the politically savy Archmagister consolidates his or her power one faction after another.

EDIT: Another idea I have is to have some off the Telvanni higher ups join the Mages' Guild. I have this funny idea in my head of Aryon having to pick flowers to gain rank in the Mages' Guild and his response to that event.
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Damned_Queen
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:18 pm

I didn't realize that the CS only allows for NPCs to belong to one faction. Would it be possible to use scripting to make an NPC appear to belong to more than one faction?
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i grind hard
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:23 pm

I didn't realize that the CS only allows for NPCs to belong to one faction. Would it be possible to use scripting to make an NPC appear to belong to more than one faction?


You could have a journal entry for when they become members of another faction and check for that in the dialog to make them act like they are, at least in dialog. As for the BuUL addition, yes you could though I would point out you already have a (former)mages guild member hiding in the town as is.

As for me, Aryon joining the Mages guild at such a low rank frightens me, I think he'd be given a high position simply for the power he already holds, along with his already established power and talent. (the player was green to the mages guild when it joined, and them testing you all the way up was just to ensure they had a good guild member, not a leech for their services)
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Elina
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:53 pm

You could have a journal entry for when they become members of another faction and check for that in the dialog to make them act like they are, at least in dialog. As for the BuUL addition, yes you could though I would point out you already have a (former)mages guild member hiding in the town as is.

As for me, Aryon joining the Mages guild at such a low rank frightens me, I think he'd be given a high position simply for the power he already holds, along with his already established power and talent. (the player was green to the mages guild when it joined, and them testing you all the way up was just to ensure they had a good guild member, not a leech for their services)


Acting like they are in the faction using dialogue and journal entries is enough for my needs, I think. Well BuUl and RoHT are my main concerns for Pax Telvanni. I want to see a PC who is both Archmage and Archmagister using politics and diplomacy to bring them together (mostly for Telvanni benefit). I'll need to play BuUL again to meet the former member of the Mages Guild but I would expect that NPC would play a key part in Pax Telvanni.

I'm not sure how I want to handle Aryon joining the guild. I agree with you about a low rank not being appropriate but I really like the idea of him picking flowers for some reason, lol. If I am going to make an .esp for Pax Telvanni that works with BuUL do I need permission from you or Archeron, Artimis? I certainly don't want to step on any toes. I don't know how much work I'd be making for myself but part of me likes the idea of a sort of LGNPC Tel Uvurith for the BuUL NPCs.
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Ludivine Poussineau
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:17 pm

...and get some more ideas and opinions on your ideas.
(Note: I don't expect anyone but Michael_Lightbringer to understand this line. It is but a mere transition from a PM discussion to this public thread.)
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TASTY TRACY
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:45 pm

Acting like they are in the faction using dialogue and journal entries is enough for my needs, I think. Well BuUl and RoHT are my main concerns for Pax Telvanni. I want to see a PC who is both Archmage and Archmagister using politics and diplomacy to bring them together (mostly for Telvanni benefit). I'll need to play BuUL again to meet the former member of the Mages Guild but I would expect that NPC would play a key part in Pax Telvanni.

I'm not sure how I want to handle Aryon joining the guild. I agree with you about a low rank not being appropriate but I really like the idea of him picking flowers for some reason, lol. If I am going to make an .esp for Pax Telvanni that works with BuUL do I need permission from you or Archeron, Artimis? I certainly don't want to step on any toes. I don't know how much work I'd be making for myself but part of me likes the idea of a sort of LGNPC Tel Uvurith for the BuUL NPCs.



Unfortuneately, I don't really own the rights to either mod and thus i refer you to this:
Permissions
Please ask for permission before using any part of this plug-in in your own mods (except for the models and textures, feel free to use those).

-from the BuUG readme

BuUL was made/released after waiting 2 months for a reply, i received none. I expect the same is required of you, as it says nothing concerning the action after contacting him (though this is, admittedly, following the letter and not spirit of the law) meaning that any message his way would then allow you all rights, with or without reply. I felt extremely safe with BuUL, as i had something akin to documented proof that the original author intended such a mod. Still, I would feel certain Archeron has no interest in the project as of current, and any work with it is unlikely to cause problems, especially with yours just encouraging it's use, and not replacing or updating it. Just be sure to include him in the credits, and make the mod(s) a dependancy, not included with yours.

The BuUG mages guild member is an outcast, practically on the run(so far as I can tell) and thus it may be more interesting to require she be turned over to the proper imperial order for the mages guild to make peace and become under heavy telvanni influence. Certainly a hard decision, but an interesting one. Aryon could still pick flowers, but certainly not for journeyman, he is more likely to "convince" another member of one faction or another to do it for him. (consider that he freely gave you the dominating glove, imagine what powerful artifact he mast have in storage to have him give you it)

As for LGNPC BuUG or the like, that's quite a large bite for anyone. LGNPC is done by a dozen or so writers and 1 or 2 scripters, and they take a significant amount of time for any one of their mods. I know Ostar has done some work by himself, but then he still took a lot of time to do so. I haven't fully counted the NPC's in BuUL or BuUG, but I believe there is upwards of 15, and each dialog addition in LGNPC ranges in length from 1-3 pages(estimation) so you are looking at, within reason, 20 pages of writing. Again, I don't want to discourage anyone, but it may be wiser to focus on getting the quests and events that would be needed to politicize the Great House before working on the town of uvirith
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QuinDINGDONGcey
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:04 pm

I followed your advice and contacted Acheron. Hopefully he's receptive to the idea. I would, of course, credit him in any work that is derived from his great mod.

I'm getting ready to play through BuUL in the next day or so. Then I'll be up to snuff with the outcast mage you keep referring to. I have a few other NPCs I'm thinking of giving a bad end to so your idea may be the way I lean on this NPC as well.

I agree that making BuUL/BuUG into an NPC mod of the same caliber as LGNPC is a lot of work. I'm more inclined toward dialogue than questing for the mod's NPCs. I just want to give them some flavor. I like Stuporstar's suggestion in the other thread of magistrate type quests. (I'm going to let the other thread fade away, Artimis, as you found your way to this thread anyway and that other thread was more directed at you, anyway.) The focus would definitely be on the politics and diplomacy before the average citizens of Tel Uvirith.

I'm not inclined to give every BuUL/BuUG NPC the full LGNPC treatment. Just enough to make it worth the PC's while to wander his/her town and see what its people are like. That being said, I do have some places that will get more of the "LGNPC" treatment, namely the Mages and Thieves Guilds. I have some Morag Tong stuff in mind too. As you mentioned in my other thread that you may be willing to help I'd have to say an emphatic "YES!" I have a vision for what I'd like to see but I know for a rookie modder I have a lot on my plate. If you, Artimis, or another big Telvanni modder/fan, like Stuporstar or bhl, wants to hop on board that would make me feel great. I have no problems admitting that I'm a bit nervous about what I've set out to do having never done any more modding than making an item have a higher enchant level.

I'm going to be putting out a few more posts in a minute. Bhl and I have been having a private conversation that he's okayed for me to post in this thread. It's relevant to the issue(s) at hand and I feel it can only inspire Telvanni fans.
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RUby DIaz
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:05 pm

I said:
Hello. I am working on a concept for a RoHT dependent mod that would in many ways work opposite of RoHT. My idea is for a mod I'm currently calling Pax Telvanni. My mod is one in which a protagonist who belongs to multiple factions attempts to consolidate power under the Telvanni banner in a more peaceful manner than the original RoHT. Diplomacy and hopefully some intrigue and skullduggery will be utilizied by the player to unite the various factions under the Telvanni Archmagister.

I played through RoHT a couple or three years ago and really liked it. I'll be playing through it again (in godmode) to let me try my hand at the changes since I last played it. I just wanted to give you a heads up that I am hoping to make a RoHT dependent mod. You asked for notification in your modder's resource readme that came with RoHT.


bhl said:
Hello Michael,

I'm delighted to hear that you're planning to make an addon for RoHT, and those ideas sound really good! I hope you know what you are up to do there: making diplomatic quests believable is a great and time consuming endeavour. Anyway, go ahead, and make Pax Telvanni: from the sounds of it, I'd really like to see it happen.
There's one thing I'd like to ask/advise you, though: do play the new v1.3. A lot of things have changed considerably since v1.25. The increase in functionality is greater than the small increase in version number may imply. And with the upcoming v1.4, there will be another small change in RoHT's final quest. v1.4 WIP itself is not yet ready for distribution, but I can at least show you RoHT's latest quest tree.
I have also read your Pax Telvanni thread, and I'd like to share my thoughts concerning the various guilds.


what if the PC, as a Telvanni leader, wanted to smooth over rough waters between various factions he/she belonged to and the Telvanni? I'm thinking especially of the Temple, Morag Tong, and Ashlanders. For those a little more broad minded I am thinking of the Mages' Guild, Thieves' Guild (since you can't join the Cammona Tong), the Twin Lamps, and maybe the Fighters' Guild for those Battle Mage types. The Imperial Cult and Imperial Legion seem less likely.


Temple
I don't see a full reconciliation with the Temple, but at least it's a completely Dunmer institution. And since Vos features an actual chapel, this is imaginable. As long as you don't send male priests into Dratha's town...

Morag Tong
Where are House Telvanni and the Morag Tong in conflict with each other? The Tong works for every Great House as long as it pays for its assassinations. I'd also assume that the Tong would be very careful to get too close with any Great House. It earns its living by performing assassinations for all Great Houses and can't afford to lose its neutrality.

Ashlanders
Again, where are the Ashlander tribes and House Telvanni in conflict with each other? And more importantly, how is the player going to represent the Ashlanders in this questline? (S)he is not an Ashkhan but a mere hearthfriend (?).

Mages Guild
That will be the hardest part of Pax Telvanni. It is possible, yet highly unlikely. House Telvanni and the Guild of Mages are hostile to the blood: in unmodded Morrowind, House Telvanni succesfully deprives the Mages Guild of their monopoly for alchemistic (?) services in Vvardenfell, and in his final quest Archmage Trebonius actually orders the player to kill all Telvanni masters. I'm not saying that it's impossible, but I think that you'd need to create a quest for each Telvanni master and each Mages Guild steward in order to persuade him/her of the advantages of a Telvanni/Mages Guild merger. The following idea

[...] to have some off the Telvanni higher ups join the Mages' Guild. I have this funny idea in my head of Aryon having to pick flowers to gain rank in the Mages' Guild and his response to that event.

is even more ambitious. It might (logically) work for Aryon, but I honestly can't see Therana, Divayth Fyr, or Dratha join the Mages Guild. "You can't teach an old dog new tricks", and those masters are truly experienced and old Telvanni. On the technical side, it is not possible to have a NPC join two factions: you'd have to pull this off completely via new custom dialogue.
On this questline's impact on RoHT: you'll have to check it for compatiblity with the following quests:

?RoHT_MagesGuild (obviously, this is where the player decides to crush or spare the Mages Guild)

?RoHT_MGRecruitEdwinna (this is where you'd add the choice to recruit Edwinna for House Telvanni but not have her defect from the Guild of Mages)

?RoHT_MGRecruitSkink (the same as with RoHT_MGRecruitEdwinna, only for Skink-in-Tree's-Shade)

?RoHT_EdwinnaTower (you'll have to decide whether Edwinna would still build her tower in the Grazelands if she joined House Telvanni without defecting the Mages Guild)

?RoHT_EdwinnaQuests (the same as with RoHT_MGEdwinnaTower)

?RoHT_SkinkQuest (basically the same as with RoHT_MGEdwinnaTower, but this one is more difficult to do. Skink grows his own tower, because he defected from the Guild of Mages, and House Telvanni didn't support him enough. He is really fed up with House Telvanni and refuses to grant it any influence whatsoever in his studies or his autonomy. If Skink remains a member of both houses, he'd probably not grow Tel Koj-Ruskhtss and simply return to Wolverine Hall. You'd have to work around his quest then, as it is currently is part of the "destroy the Mages Guild" path of RoHT. You might also want to create an alternative way to have RoHT's miscellaneous quests work, as both are quests from Tel Koj-Ruskthss' co-founders.

?RoHT_EdwinnaMadness (the same as with RoHT_MGEdwinnaTower. This quest is rather interesting and unique; it would be a shame to miss out on it, but if it can't be helped...)

?RoHT_TheranasRevenge (only if Therana joins the Mages Guild: depending on your choices while playing RoHT, Therana will not survive.)


Thieves Guild
Well... why not? They don't have much in common with House Telvanni, but that's about it.

Twin Lamps
In v1.3 et seq, you already have a choice: you can either crush the Twin Lamps, or you you can spare and even support (!) them. There's definitely some potential to expand on that questline in RoHT's aftermath.

Fighters Guild
That's probably the least problematic faction after the Twin Lamps. I'd think about the same conflicts that the Morag Tong might consider: the Fighter's Guild is working for all Great Houses and will probably very careful not to get too close to one House for fear to alienate the other two.

Imperial Cult and Imperial Legion
I'm completely with you when you say that House Telvanni is less likely to come to terms with them. Both are invaders and oppressors. Wolverine Hall only exists, because the armistice dictated its presence. While working on RoHT v1.3, I eve considered making a quest to remove Wolverine Hall but decided against it for various reasons.


So... first, have fun playing the latest RoHT. After that, I wish you the best luck for Pax Telvanni. It's a really ambitious project, and I'd love to see it come to life. If you need help on interweaving it with RoHT, I'll be happy to help out. And if you'd like to discuss ideas on how a guild might react to the player's suggestions, just shoot me a PM. Of course, we can also discuss that in Pax Telvanni's thread.

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suzan
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:34 pm

My private conversation with bhl part two:

I said:
I've been a fan of RoHT for a long time. Trying to make it work for a more moderate Telvanni will hopefully be as big of a pleasure as it is a privilege. I understand that I have big steps to follow in to make it believeable. As to playing the latest RoHT version before that was already on my agenda. I loaded up RoHT, Uvirith's Legacy, BuUL, and the LGNPC mods to play through in godmode so that I can learn the ins and outs of all the mods that inspired me.

While my mod is planned to be dependent on RoHT it will also include mods to tie in the aforementioned BuUL, Uvirith's Legacy, and LGNPC. I was perhaps a bit too simplistic in my phrase of trying to "smooth over rough waters ." Since you were so throrough with me I'll try to return the favor.

Temple
Yeah, the connection between the Temple and Telvanni will be a light touch at best. I already have an idea for another mod after Pax Telvanni to reintroduce Daedra worship in a reborn Temple post declaration of the PC as the Nerevarine. That's outside the scope of Pax Telvanni but I'll hopefully get to lay the groundwork in Pax Telvanni. The biggest issue I have in mind for Pax Telvanni is to utilize the temple in Tel Uvirith to some degree and plant the seeds for Daedra worship in a (hopefully) subtle way. But no, no male priests in Tel Mora.

Morag Tong
The Dunmer institutions will get some love even if there is no direct conflict. Hopefully I can include some new assassinations and, like the Temple, include BuUL content. BuUL content is a big issue for me. When I played BuUG a few years ago I was disappointed that there wasn't much to do with the town after you founded it. I hope to rectify that in an addon for Pax Telvanni. For the main content as an addon for RoHT the issue is that by the time the PC is the Hortator there is a lot of influence to be had for the PC If the PC wants to have the Morag Tong be subtly tied to House Telvanni then as Hortator and especially as Nerevarine it should be possible, I think. So no rough waters here but potential content, I think.

Ashlanders
The conflict here, as I see it, is between the civilized Great House and the nomadic Ashlanders. You are right about the PC not being an Ashkahn but... later on the PC is the Nerevarine and that carries some weight. What comes to mind now is something of a cultural exchange. An Ashlander (maybe that one who fails in the ancestral tomb) joins the high culture of the Telvanni while a low ranking member of the Telvanni has to try living amongst the Ashlanders for a while. This is along the same lines as the Morag Tong. No real conflict but tension can be created. I like this idea because, as I said, I'd like for fully Dunmer institutions to all play a part.
Again, where are the Ashlander tribes and House Telvanni in conflict with each other? And more importantly, how is the player going to represent the Ashlanders in this questline? (S)he is not an Ashkhan but a mere hearthfriend (?).

Mages Guild
I agree that this is the hardest sell of all the factions. I think it is potentially the most rewarding, though. I intend to tie in elements of the vanilla game here. For instance, the Telvanni spy quest received from Ranis Athrys is a good example. If the PC sided with the spy things will move more smoothly. If the PC turned in the spy I intend for there to be repercussions. I don't have all the details worked out but this was one quest that stuck with me. Obviously I have to play through the various options of RoHT before I can decide which way to go with this one. One idea I have is for an arbitration be called for by the PC as Archmagister where the Mages Guild has to be somewhat subservient to Great House Telvanni. This will cause various mage guild members to have animosity toward the PC. An example here is that I can see Ajira swear allegiance to the Telvanni while her nemesis, Galbedir, remembers the PC helping Ajira in their little feud and becoming an enemy of the PC. Hopefully I can do it in such a way that the PC can fail and instead of the two factions joining it leads to more hostility. Including material for all Telvanni and Mages Guild senior members is a given. I'm hoping I can do it so that it is engaging and treacherous. Allies and enemies made both.

I didn't realize that an NPC can have only one faction. I'll probably have each NPC align with the faction they most identify with after the PC makes waves. Then I'll use dialogue to mimic dual faction membership. Would it be possible via scripting to unofficially have an NPC join a second faction? As to Telvanni masters joining the Mages Guild the only one I was thinking of was Aryon. I have some humorous dialogue (eg. that picking flowers) that I think could brighten up the mod. Other Telvanni mages aligning with the Mages Guild would be lower ranking Telvanni. Maybe Fast Eddie or another NPC who is close to the PC. I'll be keeping an eye of RoHT quests as I play through the mod, obviously.

Thieves Guild
I think an alliance between the Thieves Guild and Telvanni could also have some nice content. Cammona Tong and the Thieves Guild in Sadrith Mora come to mind as possible sources of new content. If the Telvanni were to unofficialy recognize the Thieves Guild the same way the Imperials do it could be of great benefit to the Thieves Guild so I can see the motivation. I have an idea for a new branch of the Thieves Guild along the same lines as the Bal Molagmer: the Spellfilchers. It would be a division of the Thieves Guild for mage-thieves.

Twin Lamps
Yeah, I forgot about the RoHT content for Twin Lamps. I'll probably just leave your work as is for this faction.. If I didn't have a Temple mod in mind for after Pax Telvanni I'd be more inclined to spend some time on this faction.

Fighters Guild
I hate to pull the Hortator/Nerevarine card out too often but I have to do that here again. As such an exalted figure the PC would have a lot of sway in Vvardenfell. I've never actually played through the Fighters Guild questline before. So I'll be doing that in the same godmode game I'm going to be using to explore RoHT and the other Telvanni mods. At the very least I'll hope to add some BuUL content. Come to think of it that may also be the case for the Twin Lamps. It will depend on how much time this mod actually takes me to develop once it becomes an actual WIP.

Imperial Cult and Imperial Legion
I really don't like either of these factions for a hard line Dunmer. But since the mod may be played by someone who is an Altmer, Imperial, or some other race I may do at least a bare bones content here. At the very least I'll try to make their buildings in BuUL make sense.

Thanks for the detailed message. It really got me to thinking on what it is I hope to do with Pax Telvanni. The first priority of the mod for me is to make RoHT, BuUL, LGNPC, and maybe Uvirith's Legacy to all work together as smoothly as possible. I'm basically a noob at modding but I've wanted to do a Telvanni mod for years. Coming back to the game last week and seeing all this great new content for the Telvanni inspired me to throw my hat in the ring. I appreciate your offer for help. Considering the large amount of work on my plate I'm pretty sure I'll be taking you up on the offer some time along the way.


bhl said:
I'll let you play all mods related to your project in a minute (well, make that 5 minutes), but I'd like to reply to some things you said first. Please bear in mind that everything I may suggest is just that: a suggestion. It's your mod, so feel free to use, change, or discard anything I say.

Thanks for the detailed message. It really got me to thinking on what it is I hope to do with Pax Telvanni.


And that's a good thing. Don't open the Construction Set right now. Play the game a bit, get a feel for what's missing for you, and let Pax Telvanni slowly grow on you. When you think that you have worked out a part of it, sit down and write it down in a couple of notes. Or just open the Construction Set, and outline the quest in the dialogue window, Journal section. If you can't precisely outline the quest step for step, you haven't thought about it enough. In that case, ponder a bit more on it. You'll need a clear and detailed idea of what you're going to do in a quest, or you'll get stuck halfway through writing it.
By the way, that's how I made RoHT's quests: I had an idea what I wanted to see, took a couple of notes (only a single word sometimes), and when I thought I knew where I wanted to go, I wrote the quest's Journal entries (mostly catchwords at the beginning). Back then, I didn't know Klinn's Advice To New Morrowind Modders, but in retrospect, I headed most of his advice. Especially Patrograd's hints for creating quests are really useful.
While I'm at it, I'd also like to recommend the two tutorials you are likely to use/need the most: Skrikandi's dialogue tutorial and Morrowind Scripting for Dummies. I still use them.


Back to Pax Telvanni:
The first priority of the mod for me is to make RoHT, BuUL, LGNPC, and maybe Uvirith's Legacy to all work together as smoothly as possible.


Well... actually they do work together quite smoothly. In Uvirith's Legacy's (UL) latest version, Stuporstar even changed a quest to make UL completely compatible with RoHT, and I checked UL's latest RoHT patch. The same applies to LGNPC. For the latest instalment of LGNPC Tel Uvirith, Cyrano applied a couple of compatibility changes. BuUL is completely off my radar, though. I have never used it, and I'm not going to. I'm too happy with what mods I'm using in and around Tel Uvirith.
So, seeing that those mods already work together pretty well, I'd rather use Pax Telvanni to add new content that takes over where RoHT, UL, and LGNPC end. Well, you'll develop your own ideas while playing our mods.


On the faction quests:
I haven't thought about each and every faction yet, so I can only provide you with a couple of ideas. Please note that everything I'll say about Morrowind's quests comes from memory, so I might be wrong on a couple of details. Before you build on an idea, you'll need to make sure that its foundation is actually intact.

Ashlanders
I wouldn't concentrate on the Nerevarine title too much. Just about 10 days ago, I got a bug report on PES from somebody who had completed RoHT yet hadn't played the main quest far enough to be named Hortator. There are actually players who don't concentrate on the main quest at all.
Even if you require the player being Nerevarine, I can think of other, more subtle ways to persuade the Ashlander tribes to cooperate with House Telvanni.
The Ahemmusa, for example, are a weak tribe. Their Ashkhan has recently died, and in Morrowind's main quest, the player helps the Wise Woman find shelter for the tribe. I'd suspect that receiving protection from Aryon's guards would appeal to her.
The Erabenimsun, on the other hand, are a very strong clan. Until the player kills all leaders and instates a weakling as Ashkhan. He would be wax in the Archmagister's hands.
The Zainab almost have Telvanni blood in the chieftain's family: the Telvanni slave that the player escorts from Tel Aruhn during the main quest. Both Ashkhan and Wise Woman are thankful towards the player at that point. And if I remember correctly, Aryon initiates trade relations with them in an early Telvanni quest.
The Urshilaku finally are the most interesting tribe, at least from RoHT's point of view. When you have completed Skink-in-Tree's-Shade's first quests, talk to the other people in Tel KR, and you'll quickly catch my drift.


Twin Lamps
Yeah, I forgot about the RoHT content for Twin Lamps. I'll probably just leave your work as is for this faction.. If I didn't have a Temple mod in mind for after Pax Telvanni I'd be more inclined to spend some time on this faction.


RoHT leaves it open to the player for what reasons (s)he may support the Twin Lamps. Either you support them, because you are an abolitionist, or you do so, because you simply want that special consulate on Ebonheart's ground. That consulate in combination with Duchess Ilmeni is the Telvanni entrance card into all-Vardenfell politics and thus to political predominance. I can definitely imagine very interesting quests emerge from this: what if the Twin Lamps realizes that they are just a means to an end? What if House Hlaalu refuses the new anti-slavery legislation? With Orvas Dren potentially out of the way, House Telvanni might use that as a pretext to seize the Dren, Ules, and Omani plantations. Lots of potential for interesting quests.


Fighters Guild
I hate to pull the Hortator/Nerevarine card out too often but I have to do that here again. As such an exalted figure the PC would have a lot of sway in Vvardenfell.


I doubt that the Fighters Guild would really care for the Nerevarine title. They are an imperial faction, and if I remember correctly, only very few Dunmer belong to it. I remember them as businessmen in armor. I may be wrong, though. About
It will depend on how much time this mod actually takes me to develop once it becomes an actual WIP.


If you actually begin work on all factions, I'd schedule 5 to 6 years. I'm not joking here: RoHT took me nearly 3 years. There are days or sometimes even weeks where you can't stand to mod. Then, real life demands advertance, and before you realize, a year has gone past. And that's another reason you should let the mod grow on you: that way you'll know what's important to you and what is not.


Imperial Cult and Imperial Legion
I really don't like either of these factions for a hard line Dunmer. But since the mod may be played by someone who is an Altmer, Imperial, or some other race I may do at least a bare bones content here. At the very least I'll try to make their buildings in BuUL make sense.


BuUL doesn't have to make sense (and neither do I). To me, seeing an imperial fort or chapel on Telvanni ground is plain wrong. Wolverine Hall only exists, because it is part of the armistice, and that's it. The imperial guards don't even dare venture into Sadrith Mora. They stay in their fort and try to lay low, because they know what will happen if they stick their neck out too far.


Finally, on something technical:
Would it be possible via scripting to unofficially have an NPC join a second faction?


No. The only way I can think of is to use a local (or global) variable that declares the NPC as member of a second faction. However, that variable will only work for dialogue that you have added or altered. Generic Morrowind dialogue won't be affected by it.

So, that's my 5 minutes done... Enjoy your first steps as a modder!

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James Rhead
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:01 pm

And the final part of our conversation:

I said:
I'm sort of doing what you said about playing the game before starting to mod. I have my laptop with an open text file that I pour my thoughts into as I play the game. I'm also using my run through to harvest information (faction members and their ranks, levels, races, etc). I do agree with you about fleshing out quests in notes before starting on them from scratch. Thanks for those links. I've visited them and intend to use them. Quite a valuable resource!

I didn't realize that all those mods were working so wll together. In my last run through a couple years back the mods weren't very seamless. I'd have to say the integration I want to see the most is between BuUL and RoHT. Especially since you haven't touched that mod and BuUG was such a great time for me in my last run through. The notion of having Pax Telvanni pick up where the other Telvanni mods end was the "aha" moment where I first decided to try my hand at modding again.

Concerning your breakdown (again) of the various factions I have to say I agree with what you've been saying. Our private conversations are definitely getting me thinking about what I want to do and where I want to see Pax Telvanni go. Thanks for the second breakdown.

Thanks for the 5 minutes! I'd like to ask, if you're okay with it, if we have our dialogue continue in the Pax Telvanni [IDEA] thread. You've been a great resource so far but I think if others could read what we're talking about they may be able to add to it and further improve the direction the mod is going to take. Thanks again for your time.


bhl said:
Hello Michael,

I didn't realize that all those mods were working so wll together. In my last run through a couple years back the mods weren't very seamless.


Well, back then, RoHT probably still was an abandoned beta version. In October, 2003, Pozzo left the modding community. He knew that RoHT was nothing more than an advanced beta version and uploaded it as such. Almost 3 years later, Karpik777 pulled it back from its hiatus and began to fix the most dire bugs. About half a year later, I set eyes on it, and that's when RoHT began to see massive changes. It took me until October 6th, 2009 (which was almost exactly 6 years after Pozzo abandoned it) to release v1.3. So what you have played a couple of years ago was an entirely different mod. UL is a similar matter: it has been known as "Uvirith Inside" (UI) since 2003 or earlier (I still use UI v1.6), and Stuporstar currently seems to be where I was in January 2009: close to a release yet still amidst the tedious but necessary testing.

Thanks for the 5 minutes! I'd like to ask, if you're okay with it, if we have our dialogue continue in the Pax Telvanni [IDEA] thread.


Yes, of course! If you'd like to, feel even free to quote what I've written in our PMs there.

So... let's move this over to the [IDEA] Pax Telvanni thread...

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Alina loves Alexandra
 
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Post » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:15 am

I followed your advice and contacted Acheron. Hopefully he's receptive to the idea. I would, of course, credit him in any work that is derived from his great mod.

I'm getting ready to play through BuUL in the next day or so. Then I'll be up to snuff with the outcast mage you keep referring to. I have a few other NPCs I'm thinking of giving a bad end to so your idea may be the way I lean on this NPC as well.

I agree that making BuUL/BuUG into an NPC mod of the same caliber as LGNPC is a lot of work. I'm more inclined toward dialogue than questing for the mod's NPCs. I just want to give them some flavor. I like Stuporstar's suggestion in the other thread of magistrate type quests. (I'm going to let the other thread fade away, Artimis, as you found your way to this thread anyway and that other thread was more directed at you, anyway.) The focus would definitely be on the politics and diplomacy before the average citizens of Tel Uvirith.

I'm not inclined to give every BuUL/BuUG NPC the full LGNPC treatment. Just enough to make it worth the PC's while to wander his/her town and see what its people are like. That being said, I do have some places that will get more of the "LGNPC" treatment, namely the Mages and Thieves Guilds. I have some Morag Tong stuff in mind too. As you mentioned in my other thread that you may be willing to help I'd have to say an emphatic "YES!" I have a vision for what I'd like to see but I know for a rookie modder I have a lot on my plate. If you, Artimis, or another big Telvanni modder/fan, like Stuporstar or bhl, wants to hop on board that would make me feel great. I have no problems admitting that I'm a bit nervous about what I've set out to do having never done any more modding than making an item have a higher enchant level.

I'm going to be putting out a few more posts in a minute. Bhl and I have been having a private conversation that he's okayed for me to post in this thread. It's relevant to the issue(s) at hand and I feel it can only inspire Telvanni fans.


Well, I've spend 20 minutes reading each of your "5 minutes" and I must say it looks like a lot of creative thinking is needed for this, a bit more than one person can manage. Perhaps some Ideas should be placed here, or in a PM, so one faction at a time may be critiqued and joined in it's own time.

Acheron is not likely to respond, and is just as likely never to read your e-mail. As I said before, with that letter the mod should be perfectly legitimate now, and no toes need be put under extreme pressure.

I'm beginning to see your ideas with BuUL, using those representatives to reach political dominance and place Telvanni on top.
Spoiler
(only to be blown to bits in a few hundred years... but still)
I think it's a good starting point, but then an unnecessary one in many ways. All BuUL constructions require a high rank in the factions as is, so the player is often a supreme influence as is. The question now is: What next? While we have a minor branch office living within telvanni grounds, we certainly don't have the leaders on their knees, and are probably inches from losing the players position among any one of those factions should the archmigister push any of these relations. I suggest the players feel the pressure in such a mod.

This is entirely food for thought i suppose, but then I confess I cannot find the issues above mentioned. So perhaps you can select one for discussion?
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Ice Fire
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:05 pm

I agree that there is still lots and lots of room for more creative thinking for this. That's why I'm still using an [IDEA] thread instead of a [WIP] thread. I suggest we start with what (may be) the hardest of the diplomatic angles: the Mages Guild. I'd like to revisit the Tiram Gadar/Ranis Athrys quest line from the Mages Guild. If the PC sided with Ranis there should be repercussions amongst the Telvanni. If the PC sided with Tiram I think it might be neat to have Ranis come back with some cronies and try to exact revenge upon the PC.

A little off topic but of related interest is the Thieves Guild. I'd like to explore the Bal Molagmer a bit more. Maybe make the unofficial headquarters for the Bal Molagmer Tel Uvirith? I was thinking a series of quests for different thieves in a fashion similar to the Fast Eddie quests. This ties into both the Mages Guild and the Telvanni for me. I'd like to see an opportunity for a larcenous PC to recruit Nightblades from both factions to build up another sub-group in the Thieves Guild. Where the Bal Molagmer are benevolent the Spellfilchers (as I've been tentatively callling them in my notes) take on fantastic tasks for fun and profit! Another idea I had is once the Tel Uvirith Thieves Guild is established that a high level fence be put into Tel Uvirith to let the PC sell goods at home instead of at the Creeper or Mudcrab. I know you asked for one faction for discussion but these are the two I've worked on in my notes the most and, as I said, they tie together some with the idea for the Spellfilchers.

All BuUL constructions require a high rank in the factions as is, so the player is often a supreme influence as is. The question now is: What next? While we have a minor branch office living within telvanni grounds, we certainly don't have the leaders on their knees, and are probably inches from losing the players position among any one of those factions should the archmigister push any of these relations. I suggest the players feel the pressure in such a mod.


This is the crux of the issue for me. Just as RoHT opens up Archmagister play I'm hoping to do the same with Pax Telvanni. I also think there should be an option for the PC to try and make Tel Uvirith more of a headquarters for some of the factions rather than outposts. High level, sweeping quests all over Vvardenfell for the politics and diplomacy and some at home leadership, as suggested by Stuporstar, for the residents of Tel Uvirith.

I think with so many "blank slate" NPCs in Tel Uvirith via BuUL that there can be some mixing between the two as well. For example, a resident gets caught stealing. For an Archmagister who has not joined the Thieves Guild the Telvanni creed of "get caught and you're in the wrong" may apply. But for an Archmagister who is also an esteemed member of the Thieves Guild that same NPC may be drafted into the guild to improve his or her skills and give the Guild another asset to utilitze.
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Jessica Nash
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:20 pm

I agree that there is still lots and lots of room for more creative thinking for this. That's why I'm still using an [IDEA] thread instead of a [WIP] thread. I suggest we start with what (may be) the hardest of the diplomatic angles: the Mages Guild. I'd like to revisit the Tiram Gadar/Ranis Athrys quest line from the Mages Guild. If the PC sided with Ranis there should be repercussions amongst the Telvanni. If the PC sided with Tiram I think it might be neat to have Ranis come back with some cronies and try to exact revenge upon the PC.

A little off topic but of related interest is the Thieves Guild. I'd like to explore the Bal Molagmer a bit more. Maybe make the unofficial headquarters for the Bal Molagmer Tel Uvirith? I was thinking a series of quests for different thieves in a fashion similar to the Fast Eddie quests. This ties into both the Mages Guild and the Telvanni for me. I'd like to see an opportunity for a larcenous PC to recruit Nightblades from both factions to build up another sub-group in the Thieves Guild. Where the Bal Molagmer are benevolent the Spellfilchers (as I've been tentatively callling them in my notes) take on fantastic tasks for fun and profit! Another idea I had is once the Tel Uvirith Thieves Guild is established that a high level fence be put into Tel Uvirith to let the PC sell goods at home instead of at the Creeper or Mudcrab. I know you asked for one faction for discussion but these are the two I've worked on in my notes the most and, as I said, they tie together some with the idea for the Spellfilchers.



This is the crux of the issue for me. Just as RoHT opens up Archmagister play I'm hoping to do the same with Pax Telvanni. I also think there should be an option for the PC to try and make Tel Uvirith more of a headquarters for some of the factions rather than outposts. High level, sweeping quests all over Vvardenfell for the politics and diplomacy and some at home leadership, as suggested by Stuporstar, for the residents of Tel Uvirith.

I think with so many "blank slate" NPCs in Tel Uvirith via BuUL that there can be some mixing between the two as well. For example, a resident gets caught stealing. For an Archmagister who has not joined the Thieves Guild the Telvanni creed of "get caught and you're in the wrong" may apply. But for an Archmagister who is also an esteemed member of the Thieves Guild that same NPC may be drafted into the guild to improve his or her skills and give the Guild another asset to utilitze.


For the "catch a spy" quest we would first need a reason for the archmigister to be allowed in such a guild, as logically the PC would likewise be considered a spy also. I've always wondered why Ranis would recruit a Telvanni only to have him work on catching another of his own kind. Perhaps this would be a good point to start of figuring out relations of the two.

If both factions(Mages and Telvanni) are consistently using the player to ruin or hinder the other faction, they should at least be aware of the opposing work the player is doing, perhaps even questioning the player membership or denying services. In the spy quest, a telvanni(or a potential future telvanni) is asked to catch a telvanni spy within the guild, and the player finds some terribly flawed papers. There are 3 possible endings to this quest according to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Catch_a_Spy, the standard choice of turning the spy over to Ranis, the option to inform the archmage that Ranis is the spy (a most pleasing option to many), and the option to tell the archmage the real spy (only he wont believe you).

Forgive the ramble of things you likely already know. It seems the biggest changes would be around the choice to frame Ranis, with much encouragement and perhaps some actual rewards from the Spy for doing so. This would also create an NPC to work through for the remainder of the relations, as Tiram is the Archmage's adviser on Dunmer politics. This means that Telvanni may already be in position to either ruin the Guild or force cooperation, however unknowing, so Tiram is just the leverage you may need to force headquarters into Uvirith. If this is the first encounter for the player with the Telvanni, this a potential recruitment opportunity as well. It may also be wise to give more incentive for the player to disobey Ranis earlier (as some quests must be done contrary to Ranis's preferance for the framing option to become available), and perhaps even suggest the player should try to remove the bane that is Ranis. A few added snippets to comments from Ajira, Edwinna and Skink should suffice, along with probing from Tiram when the time comes, perhaps even a forced greeting after the player retrieves the documents from the Archmage for an offer to come to the dark Better side.

For now, I'll try to stick to one major idea per post. bhl is correct in pointing out that working on everything at once will lead to a 6 year project.
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kyle pinchen
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:27 pm

I've been cruising through faction quests to make sure I'm up to snuff with vanilla before worrying about modding. I think the one major idea here is Ranis. In the first pair of quests that she gives you one is a disgruntled Mages Guild member. The other is a Telvanni Ranis wants to recruit to the Mages Guild. So, perhaps the groundwork for Ranis is earlier than even Tiram. I don't know that it needs to be dealt with right away in Pax Telvanni but the Telvanni recruit Ranis starts off with may be of interest as well.
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Benito Martinez
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:15 pm

I've been cruising through faction quests to make sure I'm up to snuff with vanilla before worrying about modding. I think the one major idea here is Ranis. In the first pair of quests that she gives you one is a disgruntled Mages Guild member. The other is a Telvanni Ranis wants to recruit to the Mages Guild. So, perhaps the groundwork for Ranis is earlier than even Tiram. I don't know that it needs to be dealt with right away in Pax Telvanni but the Telvanni recruit Ranis starts off with may be of interest as well.


I view Ranis's action as the exact opposite of the intended, the mages guild is engulfing Telvanni minds, putting Telvanni below the guild. Ranis also actively attempts to foil Telvanni efforts in most everything.

Ranis being recruited does, however, appeal greatly to me. There is only one large flaw with this, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ranis_Athrys. Still, since she is so Mages guild oriented, having her kicked out (through Tiram, so Ranis still might trust you) would be traumatic and offering her a place in the house where she might exact revenge for her parents may appeal, but this would have to be an extremely difficult quest, considering her history with the house.
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Greg Swan
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:15 pm

Yeah, she's a Mages Guild member with the heart of a Telvanni, lol! I am in the opposite thought of Ranis and joinng House Telvanni. Even before I read that UESP article showing her hatred for them I didn't think she'd get along. I definitely see her as a candidate of opposition to the Mages Guild and Telvanni getting along. I tried to talk to the NPC the UESP article referenced but she just gave me a generic Bloodmoon teaser. I'll take your and UESP's word for it that her parents were killed by a former Archmagister. My ears are open if you can think of a smart way for her to join the House. I just think she makes a better villain.
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Stefanny Cardona
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:33 pm

Yeah, she's a Mages Guild member with the heart of a Telvanni, lol! I am in the opposite thought of Ranis and joinng House Telvanni. Even before I read that UESP article showing her hatred for them I didn't think she'd get along. I definitely see her as a candidate of opposition to the Mages Guild and Telvanni getting along. I tried to talk to the NPC the UESP article referenced but she just gave me a generic Bloodmoon teaser. I'll take your and UESP's word for it that her parents were killed by a former Archmagister. My ears are open if you can think of a smart way for her to join the House. I just think she makes a better villain.


I opened the CS, just to double check:
Ranis Athrys in the Balmora Mages Guild has something against wizards who aren't in the guild. I think it has something to do with her parents, who were murdered by the old Telvanni Archmagister, the one before Gothren.


That would put Ranis at upwards a few hundred years... I can see her as the opposition, but then it is already so easy to remove her. Perhaps she could return later (from where ever expelled mages go) and cause more trouble for the politics? The only real way to force her joining would be to give her a new enemy, something to focus her hatred on that supersedes the Great House, meaning a more traumatic experience than watching your parents be murdered. I doubt I can think of one, but that's what it would take. Perhaps the player can take her telvanni hatred and misdirect it, lead it to destroy others who oppose the alliance?

For now, I think the role of Villain will fit her nicely.
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Harry Hearing
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:39 pm

Yes, I think there's some potential to make her the villain in this. It's easy enough to get her kicked out of the Mage's Guild in one of the vanilla quests. Doing so would probably cause her to attempt to enact some kind of retribution at a later date.
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sw1ss
 
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Post » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:23 pm

I opened the CS, just to double check:

Ranis Athrys in the Balmora Mages Guild has something against wizards who aren't in the guild. I think it has something to do with her parents, who were murdered by the old Telvanni Archmagister, the one before Gothren.


That would put Ranis at upwards a few hundred years... I can see her as the opposition, but then it is already so easy to remove her. Perhaps she could return later (from where ever expelled mages go) and cause more trouble for the politics? The only real way to force her joining would be to give her a new enemy, something to focus her hatred on that supersedes the Great House, meaning a more traumatic experience than watching your parents be murdered. I doubt I can think of one, but that's what it would take. Perhaps the player can take her telvanni hatred and misdirect it, lead it to destroy others who oppose the alliance?

For now, I think the role of Villain will fit her nicely.


Yes, I think there's some potential to make her the villain in this. It's easy enough to get her kicked out of the Mage's Guild in one of the vanilla quests. Doing so would probably cause her to attempt to enact some kind of retribution at a later date.


I like Ranis as one of the "villains" in this too. Maybe she'd even make a good head villain. Once expelled from the guild she could adventure like the player does and so beef up her levels before the confrontation. It would give the player the chance to get that phat lewt she gives for turning in Tiram. I like the idea of expanding on her backstory. She's ruthless but she has a legitimate axe to grind. I was thinking of another quest later to get a new Steward for the Balmora guildhouse. I'm currently leaning toward Masalinie Merian, the Guild Guide. Maybe we can give her some back story along the way and make her a gossip. I kind of like the idea that as a Guild Guide she's something of a gossip. That Archmagister line that Llathyno Hlaalu has could be given to Masalinie. Right now it's too obscure. Especially if Bloodmoon overrides it on the one NPC that says it.

Doesn't RoHT go into the past Archmagisters? I haven't played it in a couple years but I remember there being a "soul room" where the player talks to past leaders. Maybe this could be tied in to the Ranis quest line. This may be shaping up to be the catalyst for the Mages Guild internal war spilling into Telvanni's hands. I see Galbedir as potentially eyes and ears within the Balmora guildhouse for Ranis after she's expelled.

I just finished the "Catch a Spy" quest that we're talking about. There's a few lines of dialogue building up to the climix of the quest. Mining these for possible plot development could be smart. Trebonius even says:

What? I thought she hated the Telvanni after what they did to her parents... But I have heard she was trying to intimidate rogue Telvanni to join the Guild. Tiram Gadar mentioned that the Dunmer are quite upset over some of her actions. I will have her expelled immediately.


So my earlier notion of tying in all of Ranis' earlier quests seems plausible. Llarar Bereloth being a Telvanni has to be able to be tied into Ranis somehow. Either as a cronie for Ranis or as another spy maybe?
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Darrell Fawcett
 
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