It's tough... but thanks i look forward to your return.

Stealthy knock-outs is balanced.

Outside of stealth I can only see one (at the moment) balanced solution. Finishing moves is a quick time event and if you chose not to do it, they faint.

Edit: This would require that all fights ended in a finishing move of course.

I don't want this. Back to the drawing board.

I'm sorry, but this is a terrible idea gameplay-wise. Let's compare a situation where a mage is trying to get some experience and items from some bandits in a cave (to help pay for an orphanage if you want to roleplay).

Scenario 1: The mage goes in spells flying wand waving, torching enemies left and right. He's constantly on the move to avoid getting in melee range while trying not to get too many enemies' attention. During all this, he's managing his fatigue and magic regen, using potions, doing anything he can to stay alive.

Scenario 2: The mage sneaks around knocking out enemy after enemy with "sleep". He's only in danger if he messes up. It's like he's a theif, only he can just sleep anyone who gets in his way.


I understand that having more options available makes for better roleplaying, and I think a sleep spell and knockout special abilities could make a great mod, but including them in the base game means they should be balanced in comparison to other abilities. The sleep spell and knockout abilities are basically akin to instant-kill abilities (unless the duration would be so short that you'd have to knock the same npc's out multiple times during one dungeon). There's NO WAY to effectively balance this against strong enemies-because strong enemies are supposed to be a CHALLENGE. So you end up in a situation where either the sleep spells are obviously far too powerful, or they have so many restrictions and stipulations on them that using them effectively is basically impossible.

A MOD doesn't have these problems. Adding a sleep spell in a mod is ok because the mod can be for people who want to roleplay as someone who doesn't kill, and therefore all of the fire/ice/lightning spells are off limits for them. But building a system around non-lethal combat into the base game creates too many balance issues and takes too much time for such a niche, when most people will just want to kill the enemies anyways.

according to my spell in the OP this wouldn't work unless the mage was really really high level, and he would have to stay hidden while using magic, which can difficult because magic usually gives off light. and also i say that if the enemy sees you it should be impossible (or near impossible) to pull off the spell on that enemy. I think it'd be pretty balanced, if they just do it right.

it worked great in Metal Gear Solid 1-4 :whistling: in fact, you get a really good reward in that game if you beat it without killing a single enemy.

you don't need to be sorry. I'm sorry i had to fix that^

I disagree with the whole concept of a sleep spell. But only because it is being limited to mages only. I want to be able to deal a non fatal blow to anyone, as long as it is CQC. The way I think of it is you do a non fatal move such as a punch or a smack with the hilt of a sword if you hold the block button and attack. It has to be on the attack that would kill them though. That way you have to gauge your enemy. Do I swing at him a few more times or will the next one kill him? For a stealth character this is easy, as some enemies will have been killed by a sneak attack, all you do is hold block while you do it. For a warrior it is much harder because they are aware of you and you can't really guess how much health they have exactly.

For bows, I would say some kind of a poison that only works if the attack would have killed them, and a sleep spell is fine for mages, provided it can be balance. Maybe it is nothing more than a simple damage health spell that knocks them unconscious instead of killing them, provided they do enough damage. Then most of the balance issues are gone entirely. Enemy has a lot of hp? You need a stronger knockout spell, or you have to start a fight with them and actually hurt them a bit. Just my opinions.

I'd definitely like something that allows you to just temporarily disable all entities instead of having to kill.

Sleep spell / Knockout should be a "stealthy" or "mercy" move that you can only use every so often (Not 5 times in a row, maybe once every two minutes "if" they are either weak or not aware of your presence.

I want the ability to let them live, only for my true murderer to feel true pleasure when he chooses not to.

A little known fact is that you could complete the main quest and get shockingly far in morrowind without killing anyone. But I love these threads and I think games are progressing to the stage now where non-lethal incapacitation should be a necessary mechanic.

Umm, did you read my post?

I already covered your `spell`.





So basically, your spell
1. Invalidates too many other options
2. Has too many restrictions, and so will be either too powerful or too weak in any given situation
3. Removes challenging situations, which is obviously against basic game design ideals



And the whole game had to be built around the possibility of using stealth/knockouts to avoid fights. Map design, interaction with enemies, and even the detection system had to be designed with the no-kill option in mind. That was in a LINEAR game, with SIMPLE mechanics and little character progress. What your asking Bethesda to add is akin to telling them that they should allow levitation.....never mind that all the city models would have to be redone, the AI combat system would need to be reworked, they would have to completely redesign dragon fights, etc. Levitation is a great idea. It's FUN to use. But it requires huge amounts of effort to implement it in any kind of sensible fashion.
Your sleep spell simply requires too much effort to come anywhere near a balanced state, and requires too many changes to AI patrols, level design, and combat mechanics to appease such a tiny player base who would use it.

And you're right, I don't have to be sorry. I was just trying to be nice and get you to see what you're asking logically. Don't try to marginalize people's opinions just because they don't agree with you.

I think only in Hand-to-Hand or sneak to knock out. Otherwise I don't see the reason for not just killing them.
Definitely not as an option against finishing move...whats the point? You've been knifing them until they're weak enough and they've been knifing you...why spare them?

As for sleep, I would like a sleep spell. However the weapons should have a percentage success rate, low at lower levels and higher at higher levels. It could increase with mysticism/illusion spells. I'd deffo use it.

But I don't see it working on a dragon hurtling towards you and sunddenly to put it to sleep. Perhaps a 'Sleep Humanoid' spell and other variations.

I think there should be a % chance to knock out only when fatigue/health is close to zero. The % chance would depend on the player/NPC's skills/level, armor (helmets reduce KO chance significantly), and weapons (Blunt/Fists/[shields? (; ] have a greater % chance than swords or axes, etc.)
A strong player against a weak NPC will have a less % chance of KO (with the NPC more likely to just get it's skull smashed in), and vice-versa. The more evenly matched NPC's should have a higher chance of KO in battle.

For a stealth approach, I imagine it to be more sneaking up behind someone and silently strangling them. Maybe a mini-game like lock picking 'cept you have to somehow overpower your enemy. If you fail, the NPC alerts other NPC's in the area and attacks you (ruining your stealth approach).

If you succeed in either of these methods, the NPC passes out for a varying time (using a bell curve with 1 hours as the average?). This would add some real/random-ness to thier KO times, so the player won't know exactly how long they have before the NPC wakes up.

And for spells, maybe a "Increase % chance of KO" spell that works in both scenarios.

And juuust maaaybe "Sleep" spells that require alot of skill/magicka (similiar to Paralyze in Oblivion) and have varying times/% chances. If they fail, it counts as an assault.
Ex. "75% Chance of KO for 30 mins", "90% Chance KO for 10 mins"

What? Why is that roleplay? (any more than just doing it because the PC is psychotic, or bored, or for reputation sake, or honestly a true good Samaritan).

Neither sounds bad to me; actually both sound pretty good. Certainly a sleep spell should not be a guaranteed knockout. The target's unique stats, and skill with magic should affect their ability to resist the effect.


No such thing though ~anymore. Everyone in TES is a mage (a spell caster); its one of the few true peeves I have with the franchise.

Unarmed should revolve around taking out enemies in a nonlethal way. Well mostly.

Should be based on your unarmed or blunt skill how well you might have a chance to knock someone out in combat. Maces and if your Str/unarmed skill is high can cause the knockouts easier. While a knockout with a sword would be very rare.

There should also be an auto-knockout sneak mode where you must use a blunt weapon to knockout the enemy or have a high enough Str/unarmed skill. While in sneak mode if your detected you cannot conduct the knockout but if undetected you go through a stealth, and blunt/unarmed skill checks to see if you successfully perform the nonlethal attack. It would be an option next to pickpocketing and may cause some NPCs to become alerted if seen or closeby.

No. sleep spell. NPCs can be knocked out for extended periods only if now on health and fatigue. You can sneak knock out on enemies weaker than you. You can knock an enemy if you've unlocked a special, high level perk when using hand-hand.

That's pretty much my opinion in a very brief summary.

Ah.. I see. We knock them out...... then push their body OVER A CLIFF and watch them tumble down the mountainside.

I love it already.

yes yes and nver play as mage so didnt vote.

i have always wanted to have a move like a pommel strike to the face or something.

i know its way to late to implement but for imaginationsake i think it would be cool if the finishing moves had a lethal and non-lethal option

yes, firstly, stealthy chars should have a blackjack to knock out people. Secondly, for warriors, I'd imagine that shield bashing someone to death should count as knocking them unconscious. Finally, the sleep spell, maybe it would be better as a dragon shout (or dragon whisper as the case may be).

I like this idea a lot.

I don't mind fighting enemies to the death when it's like it is in Oblivion. If it's actually brutal this time around I won't want to.

Yes!

I have always been a huge fan of peaceful warriors on all kinds of television shows and I would say I am an expert in the mechanics of knocking people out because of it.

In Hercules: The Legendary Journeys, bumping people on the head with pretty much anything was considered to be great fun.
In that series about a Shaolin monk ... not exactly sure the name of it... with the guy who played Bill in Kill Bill. He pretends to be Chinese. Always hitting people in ways that makes them fall asleep. Fighting with a stick or bare hands.
Rouroni Kenshin or however it is spelled, the anime series. Fights with the blunt back edge of his sword, never killing anyone.
Some hand-to-hand fighting show, basically the guy hits people against a wall, smash their heads together, does some moves that causes immense G-forces that jiggles the brain causing a blackout.
People in movies faint all the time if they are super-cowards and can't handle a fearsome enemy.
Getting hit on the head, often hardly any chance of being lethal at all, very high likelihood of being knocked out.
Powerful fire attacks and smoke and being burned often causes people to pass out but sometimes not die. :flamed:
Extreme sound vibrations can cause you to black out.
Getting direct electric shock to the head.
Hypnosis. "You do not want to fight me, now go to sleep!" [Jedi] :snoring:
Getting strangled can do the trick.
Cover their mouth and nose.
The old drenched rag of chemicals over the face trick, sneaky one.
I would love to be able to run with enough force to bump into someone and knock them out. Either through sheer force or also the element of surprise.
The physics in Oblivion should allow you to be tripped or lose your balance in a fight and... maybe you hit your head in the fall... at least it happens all the time on TV.

On another note, smelling salts would be useful to dispel any kind of sleep.

It could also be another technique to keep people asleep... perhaps with a dream spell. If the dream is a nightmare, maybe they will instead wake up suddenly.

I don't approve of a simple sleeping spell, maybe instead use a magical flute or something to lull them to sleep, some kind of musical spell that has to be used for a long duration. :whistling: :violin:

Of course, potions, what would we do without a sleeping draft? Tap a little bit into everyone's drinks before dinner and they will all be out, easy dungeon haul.
I also agree that you should be able to fully loot the inventory of sleeping enemies.

Necromancers and other dark arts would probably want their sacrificial victims to be asleep before procuring organs or body parts... perhaps some possibilities of some gory surgeries.

Maybe you do go on the path of non-lethal violence, but if your opponents meet you in the marketplace later you will be in for it! It might be more of a hassle than you first thought, if the new AI is as great as they say.

It's not peaceful to knock somebody out.

However, it is merciful to not subsequently murder them.


I'm all for this if implemented correctly.

yes they should include non fatal knock outs. It would help alot in the thieves guild questline were you werent aloud to kill anybody or you would be kicked out. so then you could choose to sneak past them or knock them out but if they wake up before your out of there they will alert the other guards and they would start searching for you and be more aware.

I like the way Deus Ex is doing it, but I'm not sure how close it should be for Skyrim. Stealth in the sort of setting Skyrim is isn't often bound to alert far too many due to the spreading out of people.

"Peaceful warrior" is an oxymoron.
War is the antonym of peace. War implies killing. A warrior, one who makes war, cannot be peaceful.

No.

Knocks are interesting, but I'm not sure how to apply to all games. I mean...i can see knockouts for human NPCs but I can't see knockouts for a troll that 3 times your size. I'm pretty happy about paralysis spells as it is.