Was there Dragon Break when Pellinal shook Alkosh?

But really, was in that time technologies for prodicing chainmail and plate armour? In "Rislav the Righteous", which is a coulpe centuries later, said that there is was only a leather armour in that time.

Not exactly. The Grey Fox could do it by creating a time paradox, but that was a special case when the force of the Elder Scroll's absolute truth clashed with the force of Nocturnal's Curse.

But there was still a difference maintained in the end between the CoC and Pelinal. Aside from Umaril who called him Pelinal (when the mantle was strongest), the closest the CoC came to being Pelinal manifest was under the name of Divine Crusader, and even that title was defined as "appointed by the Eight and One to carry out their will and divinely allowed to inherit the use of Pelinal's Armor. Otherwise, the story would then become: "And then Pelinal became an Elf/Lizard/Cat in order to follow Umaril into Oblivion to smite his soul and destroy it for good." And the uncertainty of Pelinal's race/world-view is never in question.

I don't think he would break himself. But what quote are you referring to?


That's the. But ideally the KotN quest designers would have been inspired by the Song and not every Richard the Lionheart movie they'd ever seen.

The only thing I can say about the love letter and many of the other "sources" that are used to for sources of several theories that float around:

@DCDeacon I was wondering does bethesda consider the obscure texts and developer comments on the imperial library as actual lore? (This is the first question asked.)

@CCBrandt23 In order: No. It depends. No. No idea. (The first answer is No to the obscure texts and dev comments on the imperial library as actual lore)

That being said, no Pelinal is not from the future and is just the Shezzarine that fought the Ayleid kings. Same goes for the "Seven Fights of the Aldudagga" and the Skeleton Man papers and so on and so forth. Also the Warp in the West and it ended with time once again becoming linear after time was splintered then recombined at the same point to allow for all the events to happen simultaneously meaning that the Underking lived and died at the same time, Mannimarco became a demi-god and was weakened at the same time and so on.

If you want a more definitive source that you can read about the answer, go http://twitter.com/#!/DCDeacon/status/29538547711090688 and read the questions and answers yourself.

So basically you want us to talk to the community manager PR guy about the writing branch of things?

Also, what, did having fantasy elements in fantasy murder your dog or something? And if you go in order, then the second answer would be to the second question (of whether they are lore). How did you determine what order he answered in if not sequentially?

EDIT: In fact, pete says they're in order. That means, that "it depends" is the answer to the question. So I'm holding with my assertio nthat fantasy killed some beloved family pet.

Nope just pointing out that everyone said I had no idea what I was talking about when I said that most of the writings they were citing were not canon and just writings that had no merit and it turned out that BGS has the same stance on the Imperial Library.

Only they don't have you're anti-fantasy leanings. Because "it depends" is not "no."

@DCDeacon last question I swear What year did the games dawnstar and stormhold take place on tamriel? thank you if you can answer any
3:02 AM Jan 23rd via web
@DCDeacon Could you tell us what is the hlaalu cypher for their encoded notes in morrowind it remains unbroken to this day.
3:00 AM Jan 23rd via web
@DCDeacon I was wondering does bethesda consider the obscure texts and developer comments on the imperial library as actual lore?
2:57 AM Jan 23rd via web
@DCDeacon I was wondering if you could tell us about the story that was supposed to be The elder scrolls adventures II: eye of argonia?
2:56 AM Jan 23rd via web

So, getting back to it, Pelinal travels through time because he is time, so he doesn't even have to travel so much as be. Natch.

The actions of BSG and its affiliates contradict Pete's statement. Most recently, Greg Keyes used the Nu-Mantia Intercept (in relation to the towers and the white-gold in particular) and the Loveletter (the scathing bay, the destruction of Vvardenfell), as well as a dev-given Argonian religious concept not found in 'official' lore, in the Infernal City. Skyrim also looks to be Nu-Mantia and Aldudagga heavy. There is one explanation for all of this: either Bethesda is using obscure texts as lore, or obscure texts are describing already-present but not revealed Bethesda lore. Either way, most of them are valid secondary sources.

As for BSG's stance on the Imperial Library, they have collaborated with the librarians in the past to create lore quizzes, interviewed the librarians, and directed their employees to the site.


Besides, lore is no fun without the extra stuff. I suppose you'd prefer that we spend out time talking about how long elves live or whether vampires can reproduce?

[edit] Pelinal being from the future is found entirely in official texts that came bundled with KotN.

Well said, Lady N. But it's not just about fun. Oblivion's plot is utterly nonsensical without the continuity crutch of obscure texts. It's just a series of narrative non-sequitur overshadowed by a plot hole two thousand years wide. It's up there on a level with Final Fantasy.

Trying to understand lore without some of the very vital obscure texts is an enormous handicap. You can choose to reject lore as art written by artists and define the limits of imagination with copyright law and DVD files if you wish, but don't be surprised when the rest of the class is three chapters ahead of you. And don't come here with misinformation or belittle the efforts of others.

I just read through the Song of Pelinal again. Wow. I totally didn't understand a bit of it when Knights of the Nine came out, and now it makes a lot more sense, especially with all of the extraneous lore (yeah, I'll call it lore until proven otherwise) that has been popping up (Shor, Son of Shor, The Seven Fights, etc). Not total sense, but more sense. So Pelinal is sort of a dual avatar of Akatosh/Lorkhan. My question is this: when Pelinal unhinges and goes on a mad killing spree, is that a sort of mini-version of Akatosh's (Alduin's) world-eating destruction? I ask because in volume 3 it says "He wrought destruction from Narlemae all the way to Celediil, and erased those lands from the maps of Elves and Men, and all things in them." That sounds a lot like world-eating (or at least world-destroying) to me. There's also a mention in volume 6 of his having the "will to kill the earth in whole."

So, this leads me to a few more questions for anyone:

In Volume 2, it says: "[And then] Kyne granted Perrif another symbol, a diamond soaked red with the blood of elves, [whose] facets could [un-sector and form] into a man whose every angle could cut her jailers." Is that a reference to the Amulet of Kings, or is it a different metaphor?

In Volume 6, it says: "And Garid of the men-of-ge once saw such a Madness from afar and maneuvered, after it had abated, to drink together with Pelinal, and he asked what such an affliction felt like, to which Pelinal could only answer, "Like when the dream no longer needs its dreamer."" Does this have anything to do with the dreamer who is dreaming the whole Elder Scrolls universe and storyline (and CHIM)?

Lastly, in Volume 8, it says: "We will [show] our true faces... [which eat] one another in amnesia each Age." Does this have anything to do with either the King/Rebel cycle and/or Alduin eating the world? Or both?

And as an afterthought, when playing through the KOTN quest-line and you're warped up to the clouds where Pelinal speaks to you. Are you conversing with Pelinal the man, Lorkhan, Akatosh, or some mix of all three?

Sure sounds like it. There's another obscure fragment where the Moth Priests claim that Akatosh is insane, which also fits into that behavior, to say the least.


That bedevils me. I wrote a fan fiction that nodded at that passage.

The Amulet of Kings is supposed to be an Ayleid stone, so it doesn't seem to match up well, but how effing cool is that description? Hell yes, I want it to be true. He's a "war fractal" so why not?

I haven't done the lore thing in a long time, but read the description of the hole in Pelinal's chest again? Was it described as just a void or could there have been something in there?


The dreamer would be the universe, or Godhead, that dreamed and forgot it was dreaming, thus sundering into opposing pieces.


I believe it refers first of all to Lorkhan and Akatosh, who are the same. (But not in the way there are multiple versions of Auriel, Akatosh, Alduin) They are enantiomorph twins that constantly struggle with one another (the Rebel/King cycle). Alduin eating the world is a rather unique Nordic idea that this struggle plays itself out in a neverending series of cyclical universes (kalpas), so the cycle may truly be called a cycle, or a "waveform," which is in my mind a reference to a sort of sine wave. The Nords aren't just big dumb superstitious Vikings. The have a very profound view of existence. Other conceptions of Enantiomorph and the conflicts that created the world are pretty rigidly focused on a one-time linear event.


I think it's just Pelinal appearing out the normal concept of time, as is his wont. Since he's mostly lucid (I shouldn't say peaceful), maybe Shor has the upper hand at the moment.

Edit: But on the topic of Pelinal maybe being more than he appears:

That fragmentary passage in Volume 8 appears to take place on the deathbed of Alessia. That's where the Covenant is being sealed with her blood and the Oversoul of the wearers of the Amulet is being created. In most stories, Akatosh is supposed to be there. But Pelinal seems to be fulfilling that role. And Pelinal is both. So with whom is the Covenant made? And the Cyrodilic Akatosh is, in a way, created by this agreement. He is very unlike Auriel and Alduin, who seek the end of the world. He's acting like Lorkhan a little, protecting men. And Talos, later on, he supposedly fills Shezarr's place in the pantheon, but he's also the dragon Ysmir. He's a composite being by the end of his apotheosis, an Enantiomorph like Akatosh and Lorkhan and Anu and Padomay. So this Covenant is almost like this moment of healing of two irreconcilable foes for the good of the mortal world, sealed with the blood of the dying mother of Cyrod. It's a powerful moment.

Anyways, I always remember this cheeky line by some forumgoer where Lorkhan makes the Covenant but Akatosh butts in and takes the credit.
"Hey! No fair rewriting history as its being written!"

I apologize if I'm derailing the current flow of thought, but this seems to be the proper thread to introduce a thought (or rather question) I considered recently.

Assuming that the events of Skyrim are going to cover the end of the current Kalpa and the eating of the world (or whatever mythic re-emergence to the dawn such a concept might entail) what implications does the Loveletter from the 5th Era have on the belief that Skyrim's story will be related to these events? Firstly, the fact that the 5th Era can even exist at all imply A.) Alduin does not wake and attempt to eat the world in 4E200 B.) The 4th Era lasted, somehow, 200 years or less or C.) The Wave-function Kalpa is ended for an indeterminate amount of time/ever.

The semantic baggage carried by numbers in the Elder Scrolls sets the number 5 to be a number of completeness, and 4 to be of conflict or turmoil. These definitions are represented in the Walking Ways (the methods of reaching divinity through mortal means, with the 4th being mantling and the 5th being CHIM). "Late is the lover that comes to this by any other walking way than the fifth, which is the number of the limit of this world.."

With these incoherent ramblings spoken, what exactly do you think that the Loveletter dictates will, will not, should or should not happen in Skyrim and how it may be a clue as to some part of its events (assuming it's truly authentic). I shall sit and wait to be proven utterly wrong,

It says: "beneath the Pelinal's star-armor was a chest that gaped open to show no heart, only a red rage shaped diamond-fashion, singing like a mindless dragon, and that this was proof that he was a myth-echo, and that where he trod were shapes of the first urging."

So there's no heart (the heart of Lorkhan being under Red Mountain?), and in its place is a "red rage" shaped like a diamond, which sings like a mindless dragon. What? Maybe in place of Lorkhan's heart is the anger of Akatosh at Lorkhan for being tricked into creating the world. The "mindless dragon" description could be showing that the motivation behind the rage is a desire to purely destroy that which he was tricked into creating. Thus when Pelinal fell into his "madness" the world-destroying rage was taking over and he would be motivated to do what he was able in human form. Or maybe I'm just seeing world-eating Alduin any time I see the word "dragon" in Elder Scrolls lore now.

The Song of Pelinal, Volume 6: On His Madness:

The Loveletter is just a possible future.

It's also the sort of lore that will almost certainly have effect on historical continuity, although it is unfortunate that Greg Keyes came up with a such a lame magical plot device to handle the future the Loveletter promised.


No, that's excellent anolysis. Makes me realize how long I've been away from this stuff, and really, I'm not sure I ever did the close reading I should have. The language is enough fun by itself.

I'd only add that Pelinal's rages weren't entirely undirected, and that they were sometimes combined with anti-elven pogroms. He slaughtered Khajiit in a madness because he though they were mer. That's a bit of Shor in there too.

Gah!!

No one listens to me, I swear. The Landfall != the associated events of The Infernal City.

Totally different thing. When Landfall happens, you guys will do a spit-take like Bail Organa did when the Death Star showed up above Alderaan.

To say on post:

Pelinal + Loveletter = apples and oranges.

Thanks for the suprisingly clear clarification.

Well then I'm stumped. I had kind of assumed your "not the Landfall you're looking for" was just you speaking in riddles again, and apparently my answer to the riddle was wrong. Back to the drawing board.

But are we correct in interpreting the Red Year as the fall of the Ministry? Because as I saw it, the Infernal City and all that Ingenium stuff was a way of appropriating the Loveletter and having it justify something else entirely.

Maybe Kirkbride is just a Shezzarine who thinks it's just hilarious to show off his 1337 lore skillz.

Pelinal was a user of TalOS, who ultimately failed, but did make the highscore list.

The book said the Red Year was the year the really [NUMMIT] year when MoT fell and pulverized Morrowind. However, the cataclysm at Morrowind was not the Landfall everyone expected from the Loveletters.

What could Landfall be then? I don't know if any destruction, if it is destruction, that happens will have the same impact now that Vvardenfell's been destroyed...

The year twice-Vehk returned from the Aether?

The War of Ehlnofey. The end of magic. The death of V'vek's soul. The series' conclusion.



Lord V'vek breaks the Tower, in the Loveletter.

The C0DA broke when Twice Vehk appeared again from Aether, but they captured enough of Him to render the words stable again. The ending of the words, anyone? His soul explodes. We'll make another.

My name is Jubal-lun-Sul, of House Sul, whose name is known and heard throughout the Scathing Bay and the Nine times Nine Thrones. Our lord is High Alma Jaroon, of House Jaroon, whose city is the First City of the New North, where all who Went Under from Landfall settled and made peace with the Worm, when we were not Eighty and One separate peoples but One, carrying the tibrols on our back together and cutting tunnels by the light and heat that all mer wore, with equal dust in every mouth. My family’s name comes from the first child born in the Velothiid, Haeko-dol-Sul, and, like him, we are salt merchants. Our crest is the tusk of the bat-tiger. Our bloodline is registered by C0DA.

The Digitals say we come from another star, but so many have forgotten. I have not, for my lineage granted me audience with Memory, and I have spoken with the Wheels of Lull. I have seen proof, as any who come Up during Landfall Season, when the winds die down enough Above that all may make pilgrimage under the banner of Vehk and Vehk.

Went under, isn't an underground movement. This isn't Deep Impact. It's movement to the sub-gradient, which mirrors ours. Jubal has been/will be here. In fact, the Fifth's Golden Age may be history. I don't know, he could be the (other) Prophet of Landfall. Even still, his directive was heard, because he sent this memospore.

And the Menmoli appear to be Zero Mundi.

That's what I had assumed, that while it was Landfall, it "wasn't the Landfall we were looking for."