I feel I have to keep defending Bethesda's options offering here. Not being able to max out all the perks is a seperate issue from not being able to be a master of all available skills.

While many will want to be able to have all available Perks, and that is currently not an option, this DOES NOT MEAN CHARACTERS WILL BE FORCED TO BE POOR IN ANY AREAS. PCs will remain able to master all the skills in the game. This has been confirmed. Focusing all your perk acquisitions to Destruction, Blade and Alteration does not mean you will be forced to level off as a journeyman of sneak, restoration and block. It just means you will not be able to get the added perks that go along with mastering those skills.

Now, of course, if "Perk" is just an alias for the same ability advancements that used to come with the skill advancements as standard procedure (e.g. lower cost for destruction spells becomes a "perk" for Destruction, rather than being an automatic aspect of mastering that school) THEN ITS A PROBLEM. But if the perks are really extra special abilities that are added on top of the normal and expected improvements that come with skill mastery, then all should be well.

As long as I can change perks without haveing to make a new character I'll be happy. For me the game isnt about progresssion. Its more about exploration and haveing fun where you could find it. For example one i break into a couple of houses in city x and the next day I start a potion making business. I don't mind perks but as long as they don't cripple a jack of all trades well rounded playstyle than I'll be happy. But I would like to be able to change them at the more advanced levels once every few weeks in order to refocus my character for veriety. I'd prefer to stick with one character with a few specialisations for a few weeks [eg magic and stealth for killing and robbing npcs] and than switch to another group of proffessions instead of haveing to make ten characters and skill them up separately I'll just have one that can do a bit of everything and switch perks now and then to specialsie in something.

Sorry im not sure why youre quoting my post....if you read my stuff i love/completely agree with how beth is going about the perk system i was just stating how i was going to play....that post didnt really have any opinion in it about bethesdas system. You can find my opinion in other posts in this topic though.

Also this i completely agree with 100 times over.

Haha zen i havent seen you really around much but i find myself agreeing with all your opinions.

"makes taking perks from unrelated skills ( multi-classing if you will ) a serious decision"

I want the decisions to have some weight to them

The anology is a false one. "Don't like it don't do it" is a very different standard from, "Can't do it? Just pretend you can."
There is an ENORMOUS difference between the game allowing you options that you can choose not to utilize, versus the game entirely removing a feature and you having NO WAY to utilize it outside of pretending you can do it when there is no game mechanic to support even the illusion of such pretense.

Is there something to be said for consequence? Perhaps. Yet, the devs of TES have CONSTANTLY and emphatically insisted that giving the players the option to play AS THEY EACH SEE FIT within the boundaries of the game lore and what the mechanics can easily accomodate, is their most dominant goal.

If you go too far down the road of consequential, restricted character type choices, you eventually get into the territory of mages not being able to carry swords and warriors being entirely incapable of magic. And those two builds are FINE for people who want to play as pure mages, or as pure warriors. But they are an abomination for players who enjoy combining those roles.

And, yes, self control DEFINITELY plays a factor in roleplaying in a world of vast play style options. If you want to play as a pure mage, the game allows you to do this. If you want to play as a pure warrior, the game allows that also. But it is your responsibility to hold to your stated playstyle. You should not be able to break someone else's game experience because you WANT to be a pure warrior, but cannot resist the urge to level your character in illusion and restoration magic for the benefit of healing and invisibility spells. The answer to one players inability to resist a partly unwanted conveinience should not result in another player being restricted from freely exploring the options they desire. I.E. the answer to keeping your warriors hands off of invisibility spells is NOT for the devs to code the game so that warriors can no longer access the School of Illusion.

For myself, I am pretty sure I will be fine with the perk allotment currently provided, though I can certainly understand why others may not be. My main concern is that the perks are exactly that. Perks. ADDITIONAL benefits on top of the normal gains and enhancements one gains from attaining expertise and mastery of a given skill. The Perks should be rare and additional, exceptional qualities related to a skill. Like, perhaps, an option to damage limbs as a perk for a blade master, or an option to long term bind a Daedra for a Conjuration master. THE PERKS SHOULD NOT BE GLORIFIED, REPACKAGED VERSIONS OF ABILITIES ONE WOULD NORMALLY (E.G. in Morrowind and Oblivion) HAVE GAINED ANYWAY FOR REACHING EXPERT OR MASTER LEVEL.

I'm sure that if leveling all the way to level 280 was possible, it would be an endeavour that would take a staggering amount of time and effort. The reward? Having a demi god character.

I dislike how getting better just stops in games. I think it never should. As long as you keep fighting you would be constantly pressed to learn more and become better.

What o.O i guess i have to disagree completely there i think i the way they have it set up is just perfect for both people who want to play pure classes as well as people who want a mix. If you want to be pure and focus in on only a select number of skills then you should be farrr more skilled at those than someone who only spends half their time on those skills. So the people who like combining mage/warrior would be able to do so but they wouldnt be as skilled at mage as a pure mage and not as skilled at warrior as a pure warrior...i think thats a completely realistic and fair tradeoff and in no way could be construed as an abomination....By combining the roles theyre getting the benefits of both archetypes giving them a significant advantage over the pure classes....also seeing as how shallow the perk trees are im sure they wont have any problem dumping perks into more than one archetype if they wish.....you just wont be able to create absolute wtfgodmode characters that have every perk filled in in every slot.

And ill disagree again in that for me it doesnt have anything to do with self control....its the feeling of the game....like if we were allowed to respec id hate it right from the beginning because all the feelings of my choices actually meaning something are gone.

For me its just the opposite, For immersion purposes, I like to make my character specialize in one thing, maybe dabble in a few other things.. but mainly be good at one thing. (Like being a rogue.. your mainly a striker getting most of your damage from sneak attacks, but you are so well trained in sneaking, that you can stay hidden even after giving a few blows.) But thats my opinion.. I like it as difficult as possible for me..

The problem with comparing Skyrim to Oblivion and Morrowind is that they have reduced the progression element down to a perk and then give you such a few number of them that its nothing like the old games.


In oblivion i got 13 skills to 100 and ever other skill to a level in which i got the mastery

But no matter how i plan or how i play im trapped at some arbitrary perk level the same as the least ambitious player

Seems like a bad decision

There is no competition

Why limit perks by limiting levels

If i want to work hard and figure out my levels let me have 80 perks, that wont hurt anyone

Well, to be fair, not having played yet and not having exact details, I don't know how perfect or imperfect the set up is.

But to what you said concerning skills. . . we aren't playing a player versus player game, so that aspect of the fairness argument is irrelevant.

It is no less realistic to have a savant character who is able to perform extrordinarily in multiple fields than it is to have a character who can knock a giant on his butt, or summon the dead into battle. It is all about player choice.

In order to give your choices more weight, you would literally limit and restrict the choices of another player who might wish to play in a different manner. That is the crux of the problem to me. While I completely understand the desire to have your choices count and have consequences, the most essential factor is that you actually have the ability to choose. It is a matter of a variable versus an absolute.

My Oblvion character is very powerful. But he is not a master of every skill, even though the game allows it. With well over 1000 hours on my favoured character, I have mastery in all the schools of magic, except for alchemy, in which my skill is limited. I am an expert of Blade, Acrobatics, athletics and hand to hand, but my marksmanship skills are very low, because I have not invested much time or energy into that ability. I have roleplayed. I have the character I want.

Even if you could fill every perk tree, you would not have to, and I doubt that most people would. It seems a lot of people are bothered by the notion that they COULD become a virtual god, even if they odds are they would never get around to mastering every skill and filling every perk tree anyway. I do not see the logic in restricting others from playing as they see fit. Essentially, it becomes a matter of limiting the freedom of others because you like having boundaries. I can understand the emotion behind that, but it isn't purely logical, nor entirely fair minded.

I'd say 4, Every class needs to be good at roughly 4 things to be effective. Example: As a stealth archer I need to be effective with poison making, Sneaking, Accuracy and Blade as a close range backup. So 4 is a good number to have. It'll also allow for more replay value. With only 2 mastered you'd be making to many new characters to often to enjoy the game. With 6 you can then be essentially 2 classes in 1 causing less replay value as you could have already been a Battlemage and an Archer with close quarter capabilities there would be no incentive to make a warrior based class.