There were tons of throwaway skills. Pretty much every perk is useful.

They effectively separated Repair into four - armour, guns, melee/unarmed, tech. Add to that Scrapper, rank one Medic, Local Leader, etc and that division means that HALF of the estimated 50 perks (technically more but that's their end-game ballpark) perks are going into JUST keeping up with the equipment curve and maintaining the 'optional' settlements you keep being given.

Plus, in prev games, you got skills AND perks on a level up, instead of just the one. Honestly, when the GECK hits and we can fiddle, first mod I want is making all Workshops connect without supply lines as soon as you get Local Leader 1. Second is getting 2 perks per level so crafting isn't a sink.

Just my two cents worth...

The gated perks are for me a much more elegant system, and like some others have pointed out, a bit more realistic and balanced. I do think that some of the level restrictions need to be adjusted, or somehow overcome (I.e. You spend two or three saved points to bypass the level restriction, thus sacrificing something worthwhile), but this system does not create the "feeling" that I cannot create the character I want.

FO4 does basically restrict me from creating some op version of a build that allows for a bypass to some of the content or difficulty, so from that perspective I get the OP's concerns. This is not an open world RPG system though. Character background and story are preset. All fallouts are like this, so I don't get the criticism there.

Having said that, the whole system is much more choice heavy, which for me is much more immersive and "role play" centric. The impact of perk choices can be seen and felt, some more than others. I love that progressing followers reaps rewards, and follower feedback and comments have taken a big leap forward from the previous games which for me is a huge role play element and creates a much deeper environment (some npc random dialogue is freaking hilarious if you're paying attention, and in a few instances very moving, I won't be specific for spoilers sake though).

As far as the combat and difficulty of the game, I love that tactics matters (cover, position, stealth, thrown/placed weapons, companion commands, etc...) and there are limitations to early game power. For those claiming that "You don't have to dodge or kite and can stand toe to toe and take death claws with a wrench and a few bullets in basic armor on the highest difficulty", I call [censored]. Without mods or console hacks the highest difficulty for most gamers requires attention to detail, using the environment (landscape/buildings, other npc's, etc...), good weapon choice, and a little bit of luck (not to mention the saved game reloading hehehe).

In total, like many others, I think FO4 is a big step forward. Here's to hoping sometime in the near future we can enjoy the wasteland in some multiplayer fashion, even co op would do. /cheers to ya

Seems to me that people complaining about Skill System being gone are more mad about how they cant be really Over-Powered in a specific part of the game by level 5.

In the old games you could Cap a Skill by level 5 and then your only hope to get any better was Perks. Having 100 in a skill was way more powerful and essentially mandatory for some skills for instance you would never play Fallout 3 or FNV with the intent to fight well by say leaving your Small Guns skill at 40 points for the whole game.

In those games it was a no-brainer to cap out a weapon skill promptly and then work on whatever else.

"Dumbed down console game" said the guy who couldn't figure out a 28gb game needed a download LOLOLOLOLOL

Honestly, skills did pretty much nothing in the previous games except worked as a second set of perks that were A LOT more easier to get. What Bethesda did in Fallout 4 is a complete improvement. Right now, I have a level 50 character in Fallout 4 and guess what? For once, I'm not maxed out completely in a Fallout game! Usually, no matter who I roleplay as, I get maxed out. 100 in all of those skills and I can do everything related to them. I may not have all the perks but just having all of those skills on all characters maxed out? It made them too similar. Now? No, I was unable to max out in all of my crafting skills AND combat skills because they became perks. And became pretty much a whole entire new system which actually works, and does it's job.

That's an improvement.

jeez, it's the level up system as Skyrim, 1 point per level, YOU decide whether to put it into an attribute or skill perk plus there are loads of skill mags to pick up that give additional bonuses just like the skill books in most TES and fallout games.

As well it should be; for this was never implied, and has no bearing on either system.

This is the one aspect of the new perk system that I dislike. (I also disliked Intensive Training for much the same reason.) The player starts with 28 Attribute points. If he concentrates on ONLY raising Attributes each time he leveled up, at Level 42 he would have 10s in EVERY Attribute. No perk advantages, but bodily, he would be absolutely perfect. It has always been my understanding that when it comes to people, "There is always room for improvement." How do you improve upon perfection? Having the potential to make an unlimited number of people -- assuming NPCs have the same self-improvement potential as the player character -- that CAN achieve absolute perfection is, to me, insanely ludicrous. In FO3 and FONV, even Intensive Training had a limited number of uses. There should be a similar limitation on the number of Attribute improvements that a player can have. At least then there would be at least some consternation about, "Should I put it here, or should it go there?" With no cap, it's just a matter of time until S.P.E.C.I.A.L. becomes P.E.R.F.E.C.T. in every way.

dubbahdubbahdubbahdotnexusmodsdotcom/fallout4/mods/136/?

What you just described about FO3 is exactly how an RPG should work. Clearly, you need some meta-gaming experience to fine tune a level 2/3 character that is able to take down tough foes, but can you honestly say it was possible in your 1st play through before you knew where weapons can be found and what skills are most effective? That is the beauty of an RPG and why they have replayability. The weakness of all Bethesda games is they have pathetic combat and are too easy (aside from Oblivion which used a cheap and boring way to extend combat) but that in itself, is not the only element of an RPG.

The point is that you had to make strategic choices to advance. In an RPG, if you dont make wise choices for development, then you will get stuck and wont be able to advance. This is in contrast to a adventure game or FPS where you can advance without any sort of character building. In the case of FO4, I am basically playing my 1st playthrough without combat perks... and I discovered, they are completely irrelevant. In fact, you can assign all your special points randomly and it still wont matter. None of the perks are needed in any way. I cannot say that about FO3 or even easier games like Morrowind. But even Morrowind was impossible to beat at level 1 without an insane amount of meta-gaming knowledge. You had to play it through a few times to learn the tricks and only then could you beat it without RPG elements (except alchemy at least). But in the 1st playthrough? Hell no, you died a lot until you leveled up your skills and got better gear. This is a stark contrast to FO4... where you can beat it easily without RPG elements on your 1st run at the highest difficulty.

So you say, make it harder... go to the console and lower your hit points... okay but does not really change the fact that you can kill everything at level 1 lol. All less hit points does is make you more reliant on distance. It changes nothing about your ability to hit or how hard you hit. So lower perception to 1 and lower your hit points to 50.... well guess what, perception only really effects vats. Should I force myself into VATS all the time then?

You see what I am saying? We are making excuses for the game and finding work-arounds to make it better. A game needs to be reviewed on its own merit while being played as intended. This does not make FO4 a horrible game (this is where I disagree with many of the 1/10 reviews) but it does make it a poor RPG and a decent FPS and that would be the truth of it.

In response to folks who say that the perks do exactly the same as skills, you are wrong. Because with the skill system you are highly unlikely to concentrate all of them in 1 skill. Most players will put a few points into this, and then a couple into that, to balance out their character because the game *SHOULD* be spaced out in a way that you need more than just 1 skill to move forward at each level. The perk system makes it an absolute selection with very little wiggle room. The reason it does not matter in this game is because the game doesnt make skill important and combat is hilariously easy thus the perks really dont matter at all. But in a true strategy/rpg game, a bad selection could be a huge detriment and that is a good thing!!! It means you need to learn and adapt. This is what RPGs are all about but somewhere along the line (cough... powerful 3D consoles... cough cough...) we lost that.

I personally must agree with OP, lack of ability to specialize takes away a lot of enjoyment from game, game shouldnt restrict us from building our character how we want, I understand that its there to prevent us from being over powered but the thing is that being very strong in one category wouldnt be a problem if game had a lot of contnet in all categories(like a lot dialogue options that are affected by our attributes or our science skills our stuff like that). Being too strong in combat become problem because how combat focused fallout 4 is.

My response that what some people say:

-is game hader than previous games ?, it isnt, I didnt get any combat perk yet and yet I already defeated few bosses with gear I found along the way, and no I am not really that good of a gamer.

-Does new system prevent you from maxing everything ? no it doesnt unless game has serious lack of content, not sure which of the two is worse, ability to max everything or lack of content, regardless even if game has lack of content, modders will eventually add enough content to max everything.

-Is new progression more realistic ? God no, people cant increase their ability to do something(like for example their ability to use guns) by 20% so fast, skills were actually MUCH more realistic, if we compare time spend on leveing to time people spend on training then in real life someone could focus on training on one thing to achieve max results or increase less but in multiple categories. Yes I know that in fallout only skill levels of 25, 50, and so on really mattered but thats just it creators of game should fix that instead of removing skills.

Yes previous progression system had many problems but all of them could be fixed, instead creators replaced old system with new that works exactly same but looks simpler, for example in old system it would only if you put certain amount of points in skills(like 25) and in new system you can get perk that increase same ability(like for example guns) by 20% in a single level.

Yes old system let you be very strong fast but it could be easily fixed by decreasing amount of points given to us.

How old system could be done better that would actually be even better than new system ? keep skill system but make so that every point put in skill matter , so if people wanted in one level increase guns by 10% and unarmed by 10% they could, this would let players who prefer smoother progression do just that, and would give more option to players how to build their character.

Also gun skills should affect stuff like weapon sway and reload time, since the more skilled we are at using guns the better we aim with it and the faster we reload.

Oh boy. It's another case of butthurt. Call the waaaahmbulance. This is a great RPG. Perks are a fine replacement for skills. The game is not trivially easy, it's a well balanced and enjoyable adventure. People that are like "I killed a deathclaw using a switchblade and a pipe pistol wearing nothing but a loincloth." No, no you didn't. Claiming such to lend credence to your opinion (that you do have a right to, not saying you don't) is ridiculous. If you're that good at the game, by all means, post an instructional video and link us to it.

Numerical evaluation of characters aren't a core feature of RPGs.

I get your point here, and while I agree with it on one level, it doesn't bother me as much as it appears to bother you. Yes, by some point you could reach perfection with no level cap and no seperation between SPECIAL points and perk points, but it would take a very long time to do. And if you focused solely on building your SPECIAL stats, you won't be able to open higher than Novice locks, or hack Novice terminals, or utilize the settlements to their fullest, or have any of the other perks associated with the, well, with the Perk system. I haven't had a whole lot of time to play since the game released, but I've made a couple of throwaway characters to get a feel for the game, and my current, "official" playthrough is at level 10 with fairly well rounded SPECIAL scores and a general "infiltrator" skillset, focusing primarily on sneak, lockpick, hacking, and pistol damage. When I get the second rank of Gun Nut, I plan on putting a Suppressor on my 10mm pistol and start taking levels of the Mr Sandman perk. Each level up has given me a fairly important decision to make as to where I want that point to go, and I've run into situations where I didn't have that second rank of lock pick so I had to bypass a door or safe, or I used more ammo than I'd have liked because my pistol damage wasn't quite what I needed it to be.

Are there ways around these (admittedly minor) setbacks? Absolutely! What it did, however, was give me the feeling that I had to earn the skills I needed to support my chosen playstyle. I don't feel limited by the game, but I don't feel that the game is handing me stuff on a silver platter, either. Level caps on the various perks could use some tweaking, but overall the system feels at least as solid as the old skill points system. I don't know if I'd call it the "massive improvement" others have claimed it to be, but it's just as good as the old system. I like it better, though, since the old skill system left me feeling like a bunch of skill points were "wasted" since they didn't do anything until you reached a certain threshold. Now, at least when I spend my one point, I know it's going to have a noticeable effect.

Different strokes and all that, just my $0.02 on the matter.

Absolutely, I see only improvement over the old skill system myself.

This "controlled leveling" has become quite popular in modern games where they hold your hand to keep things more "fair" ... Clash of clans does something similar as do many games... no upgrading such and such until you are town hall such and such... hopefully someone has a mod which simply removes the level requirements of all perks. I say that now but other people make good points about becoming overpowered early and losing interest... maybe it's fine the way it is...

Ok, I have 2 problems with the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system.

1 - The descriptions are vague. For something that is game changing, please describe, in detail, what the hell I'm putitng points into.

Agility: Affects the number of actions points in V.A.T.S. and your ability to sneak.

-How many action points? Is it just 1 and I can gloss over this stat? What part of sneak is modified? Can I move faster while sneaking? Do I go into hiding quicker? Does it make me harder to detect?

All of these can change the way I use points. Just be more descriptive!

2 - Charisma stat. If I want to do anything settlement-wise, I need this stat. Up to 6, or something like that, for the Local Leader perk. To me, settlements are a pretty basic thing in the game. I understand it's optional. That's fine.

But to have to dump 6 points into char really sets you back on other areas. I found this out right away while playing Survival mode. I would love it if they made the Leader perks levels 1 or 2. 6 feels a bit high.

My snake oil salesman could sell bridges, but was a wet noodle at surviving the appocolypse.

[This segment has been annoying me since I started. I just have to put this in there since it has to do with the RPG factor]

***Pretty sure this isn't a spoiler since it's taken from the intro movie. But just in-case, don't read the following if you want to find out for yourself***

-So your character was in the military, had a family, nice house, and a decent life. Things go to hell and he pops back into the world. You are then asked to assign S.P.E.C.I.A.L. points. I'm good so far....

Then you look at your point allocation and see everything is "1". ..... This, in my book, is borderline mental retardation. (try playing the game with all 1's...)

Yes, they do give you points to allocate (Thank god!). But what happened to your military weapons training(Perception), fitness you had to maintain (Endurance/Agility), troops you had to lead (Charisma), or life experiences?

Wouldn't those be points already allocated/inherent? I know it doesn't stay 100% when you leave the military, but you never forget how to shoot a weapon or talk to people. It's almost like there was some traumatic brain injuries in that cryo-pod you were in.

More of an annoyance than anything really.

I like the perks how they are currently set up. It's new. But I will say it takes away a bit from the RPG feel in some areas.

Take sneaking, for example. No matter how much I use it, it will never get better without putting points into it. This feels awkward to me. Usually, the more you do something, the better you get at it.

It would make sense to become better at certian things the more you use them. Rifles, pistols, lockpicking, or even modding weapons/armor.

I know some people mentioned it would be over-powered at level 1 to have a sneak of 100 (as you could in past titles), but if you put in the time and requirements to level sneak to 100, why shouldn't you reap the benifits?

Personally, I would love to see a combination of the two. Say, rank 1 (Perk-side) would allow you to inprove a skill up to 20. Rank 2 up to 40, but you had to also improve the skills by using them.

I also miss the wild wasteland perk. This one really made the game unique for me in the past. I would have loved for them to keep it in.

I never said I killed bosses with low level gear its actually oposite I had really strong gear and I didnt had to work for it at all, I picked them on pretty low level locations, during first 15 hours I already had fat man and few missile launches, and few miniguns, and also you dont have to put any point in chemistry to create some really strong drugs that combined with above weapons can make you VERY OP even against bosses.

I am too lazy to read the whole 4 pages (i′m in a hurry too, i again spent too much time reading the forum/Nexus instead of playing), so if somebody else has pointed this out already, i′m so sorry. Anyway, here is a mod that eases the pain of the topic starter and all those who feel like him:

No Perk Level Requirements http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/136/?

I'd say they were; and in fact especially so in cRPGs; as they are patently impossible without it.

(Every cRPG does it, including FO4.)

so your mad you cant max out anything by lvl 4. Wow, I'm sorry they balanced the game and put lvl caps on perks, so you have to actually WORK at becoming something in the game. You say the dumbed the game down? sounds like the smartened the game up, and ur too dumb to figure it out. Its a RPG, you have to live the game. Start at the bottom and work your way up to become who you want to be in the game. Not magically become a master pick pocket in 24 game hours by using "magic" skill points.......this new generation is sad.......

ahh cheating, the solution to all lifes problems...........so, so sad

Come on, now. I'm on the side that prefers the new system, but comments like these are neither warranted or helpful.

I personally think the old skill system didn't make a whole lot of sense, because you needed to put skills at 25 point increments for them to really "do" anything. Quite often, I'd run into a situation where I'd use all of my points from a level up and get nothing from it, except a little closer to my goal of picking that lock. I'd still have to wait another level or two (depending on where I put my skill points) to reach a skill level for it to do something useful. So this system, even if I think the level caps could use some adjustment, works well for me. I put a point in lockpick, now I can unlock that next safe. The level caps work as a way to let you use those skills on less complicated locks, "gaining experience" with the skill, and then you take the point to "make it official" that you've gained enough practical experience to unlock more complicated locks.

Someone earlier suggested that we spend perk points to unlock the ability for skills to go up levels (1st perk lets you raise your skill to 25, for example, then you need to use the skill for it to go up). This could work, since it removes some of the powerleveling drivel from the TES games, while putting a bit more realism into the skill system. I'd like to see it implemented in a future TES/Fallout game. This one, however, is what it is, and I like the system we have in place.

Been a LONG time time since Ive been on the Beth forums. Happy to see gizmo still kickin around, he knows his stuff!

Anyway, I wanted to share a few thoughts.

I knew this thread was going to happen. I knew some people wouldn't be pleased with the new systems, and I knew some of the dinosaurs (I say that respectfully, they have valid opinions) wouldn't like the new perk system.

Fallout 4 is a great game. When skyrim came out, I was all over these boards bashing it's casualness, I don't know how far the post history goes but you can check if you want. I called it a "fun adventure game, but not an rpg."

I have since grown to love skyrim, probably my favorite Bethesda game besides morrowind. I won't go into why, because it's not even important.

I have learned two things since the release of skyrim:

1. It is absolutely ridiculous to expect Bethesda to keep ANY systems from previous games, skills, perks, etc. There's not an artist in the world who wants to paint the same picture for four years. Same thing with any creative industry; demanding that developers continue to make the same game over and over, without changing it FUNDAMENTALLY is wrong. You can't expext game developers to do this. It would a boring, bitter experience for the developers themselves, I can assure you. A little empathy goes a long way in this situation. As a writer, I would HATE to have to write about the same characters over and over again. Why would I expect Beth to do the same!? Don't stifle your creativity Beth! Change anything you want and don't look back!

2. The games are good, they are. Many things are gone from fallout 4, but many new things are here as well! I wouldn't trade a single previous feature for base building. I really wouldn't. It's not perfect but I'm sure you'll find that taken at face value, fallout 4 is a great rpg.

Another minor thought, I love the new dialogue system. Yeah yeah, he character voice "limits" stuff, but now that I have the voiced protagonist I love it! Puts me into the game that much more. I know people don't like mass effect around here, but the story quality off mass effect is supreme, and I'm happy to see Beth taking some pointers from industry competiton.

Happy to be back everyone.