What are you talking about, most RPGs you have to get to certain levels before you can use a certain spell or item. Just look at WOW for the final fantasy as perfect examples.

You cant unlock what eve you want at level one. You have to level first.

That is what playing a RPG is all about LEVELING UP to improve your character. Not being able to get some super duper over powered perk at level 1

Also one perk point is like TEN skill points in the other fallout 3 or NV.

Now you just have to use all ten on the same perk instead of splitting them up which is fine. Because now you can unlock that perk, where as with NV or FO3 you could add points into a skill but not level it up. (meaning going from advanced to expert).

The new way is much better than the old way. Plus now I find myself thinking what I really need instead of just dumping points randomly into skills in past games.

There were plenty of times in 3 that you don't get ANYTHING when leveling up. What I mean is that you might get 14 skill points and put them towards a single skill but it still isn't enough to put you over that invisible threshhold that means something gameplay wise. It was a veil that just masked the system they're using now. 4 or 5 sections of a "skill" that actually matter in a 100 point system is the same as just using a 4 or 5 point system. Also, why should someone with 1 Int be able to hack any computer or robot? Why should someone with 1 Str be super strong with melee?

That makes perfect sense. Just because you can shoot one kind of gun like a sniper doesnt mean you are as good with another type of gun, especially a laser gun. You really think a pro sniper has the same skill at shooting a shotgun . Of course the don't.

The math is a little bit funky on this one. They shipped to vendors (not sold to individuals) 750 million dollars worth of games. At about $60 per game, if every game was sold, that would be about 12.5 million people who bought a game.

Storm

As for me, I like the new system. Every time I level up, I usually think long and hard about how I am going to use my one point.

- Do I use it to gain a perk to help me complete the mission I am on now?

- Do I use it to gain a perk to further my character in the direction I am playing him as (role playing)

- or, Do I use it to add to one of my SPECIAL stats.

For me, not trying to deal with tons of stats helps make the game more immersive and easier to role play.

I, like others, grew up playing pen and paper RPGs, and understand all of the aspects of what people tend to call "traditional" RPGs, However, times change, and Bethesda understands their audience, and I know that when they agonize over design decisions, they ask them selves, "Is this more fun", rather than is this the way we have done it in the past. Fun trumps tradition.

Call it "dumbed down", call it "not a true RPG", or whatever - but to me, Fallout 4 is still fun.

Storm

Agreed here. I take more time and sometimes don't even use the perk right away because I'm not sure what I want to do with it yet. Much better than the arbitrary "oh I leveled up, lemme throw 5 points at these three skills and see no changes"

Yes. Skills + Perks works better for this kind of game than just Perks, in my opinion and in my experience.

It's a shame, and hopefully there will be some way of modding the game to more resemble the sort of CRPG I happen to prefer...

You are right perks are not skills, they are BETTER than skills.

With the number of skill books and the bobbleheads it took ZERO effort to be a character with 100 in every skill. Have to barter? No problem you get great discounts at merchants even though your CHA is 1. Need to convince someone to pay you extra? Not a Problem because your 100 speech character can sweet talk anyone.

The only time skills "mattered" where in the early levels where you might not have 100 in a skill you needed. The new perks system forces players to make choices, there is a real sense that your characters are different from one another because you can't do everything because you don't have enough perks to simulate having 100 in every skill.

I can already see how different perk choices will create different character builds which WILL impact game play. And when there are multiple forms of gameplay that encourages Role playing.

I honestly think the people who are whining about the lack of skills After experiencing the system are people who are either die hard traditionalists who would NEVER thing newer could be better or people who are upset that can't be the best at everything.

Nothing about the synergy that perk combos can create says "casualization or dumbing down" the system has actually created more sophistication which characters because they don't all end up 90% identical.

Some people think that the only way to show the world how savvy they are is to condemn the popular, regardless of the merit of such a claim. Rather sad actually knee jerk condemnation is just a bad as knee jerk fanboyism. Worse because you think you are wiser but are just as blind.

The point is not having enough points, and of the need for deciding early to strive towards development of one skill over another if they want professional ability; and not being able to radically/instantly change the PC's aptitudes and insight from gained experience. With perks as as an ersatz skill system, the PC can be made to hit milestones in their understanding of the skill without having put any time into it. With even the [less than pleasant] FO3 skill system, at least the player indicates that the PC is concentrating on getting better at the selected skill; and eventually manages to expand what they can do with it.

Do correct me if I am mistaken, but cannot the PC forgo further ranks in the perks they've repeatedly developed, for an arbitrary minimum competence in something they previously had no interest in? (and cost them the same as advanced progress in their developed perks? Why would a character do this? What aspiring locksmith decides to give it up for a month of tap dancing lessons? (What aspiring tap dancer would stop their training to take up lockpicking instead?)
*What I mean is, that to have gone into training for something like that implies a personal drive that would resist switching electives on whim, because of a sense of loss.
(The loss of leveled skill points committed to mastering a skill; you cannot get that in the perk system ~as I understand it... because there is no element of loss for changing to a different perk.)

Whats the point you're trying to make here? Thats exactly how it works in Fallout 4. You dont have enough points to put into everything, being level 33 my man Leon is good at non-automatic rifles and pistols, knows his way around a work bench to get the most out of those rifles and pistols, and is turning Sanctuary Hills into a thriving trade settlement due to his ability to lead people and barter with merchants.

What he isnt good at is anything to do with energy weapons, he doesn't have any knowledge of high tech work, and those laser muskets his minutemen allies use are foreign to him. This also carries over into the high tech buildings for his hometown, he constructed a set of water purifiers recently, and he could have made a massively more efficient purifier and generator to power it if he had more knowledge. He is terrible with automatic weapons, and is also not that great at convincing people since he developed more into a leadership and bartering role instead of straight diplomat.

It also should go without saying that he can't reassign all of these points at a whim, but im not sure if you understand that.

My personal problem with the special system is that it no longer defines your character, but it just serves as a bookmark at any given moment; logging your current progress towards 10 in every stat.

You no longer play as a hypothetical 'strong brute with low intelligence', you just play as a loosely defined grey mulch that will eventually become awesome in every possible way (without exploiting the system).

We no longer play as a character with flaws, but as a character in the race towards perfection.That's not to say the previous leveling up system was perfect (the balancing was execrable), but Fallout 4's leveling up system, by changing your special points destroys any notion of actually playing as a character or a role; special is no longer a defining feature and in a sense no longer feels special.

I respectfully disagree with the above assessment. If you used all of your perk points towards your SPECIAL stats, you'd spend 40+ levels just on stats. You wouldn't gain any of the damage perks, sneak, lockpick, hacking, etc. So while you are correct that you can make a character with 10 in all of the SPECIAL stats, you only gain limited benefit from doing so. You gain much more efficacy by using the perk points on actual points, and only taking SPECIAL upgrades when you want to reach a certain perk you can't gain with what you have now.

On the topic at large, I can kinda understand what people are talking about by losing the 0-100 points in skills. With skill books and other aids, you can use fewer points at a level up to reach a certain threshold for skills. And some people feel a higher sense of achievement when their skills are going up, however slowly or quickly they wish, rather than just one point that gives you the benefit of that skill. They also get the freedom to spend those points how they wish, even if it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, with the 25/50/75/100 point milestones for the skills to actually do anything relevant. It's very similar to how people reacted when Bioware changed the skill trees between Mass Effect 1 and ME 2&3.

I personally like the new system, even though I liked the old skill system. Now, I feel I have more freedom to choose how I want to specialize my character, with the ability to gain a couple of SPECIAL points to unlock certain perks, while at the same time I feel like each perk I choose is an important decision to make. We only get one point per level, and even if levels come fairly quickly at first, you still need to decide if you want to pick that lock you found a town or two back, or if you want to hack this terminal here, or if you want to take a dip into a highly irradiated pool, or if you really need just that little bit extra damage to fight the Radscorpions over the next hill. Add the weapon modification system to the perk system, and you really have a setup that adds a lot of subtly to the game while making each choice feel important.

Yeah, I agree the balancing could use some tweaking, but the system as a whole has my enthusiastic, unfettered approval. I really wish those who dislike it could see it from that viewpoint, although i respect their opinions.

or you could choose to just, ya know, not put points into SPECIAL passed the vault LOL

You could also choose to jump don't your house or to shoot a bullet in you head.

I have no idea what you were attempting to say, and I'm pretty good at working out broken [censored] english

An interesting thing about a 15-year combat veteran: his training started in Boot Camp. The institution, the Army, Navy, or whatever has an interest in making sure that soldiers have a well-rounded education. "Even our cooks are Rifleman-certified" is a truism in most Military groups. The world in general (and the Wasteland in particular) abhors pure specialists. You may create a phenomenal sniper, but if he ever is caught in melee, he is most likely going to die. For every pure specialist, there WILL be at least one Achilles Heel that is guaranteed to get him killed early on.

In Education, there are two primary paths: Tech School or University. With Tech School, you will become a highly skilled mechanic, IT specialist, or whatever. But if there is some kind of economic downturn and that kind of specialist is no longer called for, what you have is an unemployed person with no talent for anything else. Meanwhile, the University grad may no longer be able to use his degree in his Major field, but because of the General Studies requirement, he should be able to find something for which he is qualified. However, in both paths, they build on the Generalist training that Elementary and High School that was instilled. So regardless, graduates of both paths should have something they can fall back on.

Creating focused specialist characters that have Mastered their specialty by Level 10 is like starting a person in Tech School in the First Grade. And given the game environment, he shouldn't even survive to reach 10th level. (Other than via the die-and-Load-the-last Save approach until the character barely squeaks by.) That is why I actually like the FO4 approach. Given the level gateways, the player will have a perk point to spend on something. It may as well be on some other useful skill.... which ultimately leads to better rounded out characters. Once all the basic Must Have skills are adequately covered, then the specialization can be concentrated on. Which, to me, seems more reasonable and "realistic".

You're right, they aren't a replacement for skills. I have no idea why people like to pretend nothing has been removed.

We had the same thing with Skyrim. Skyrim doesn't have any attributes but there were people who kept vehemently insisting that everything attributes did was still in the game. It's not. People also insisted with Skyrim as with Fallout that it was an improvement. This is also not the case. An outright removal can almost never be seen as an improvement. Fallout 4 isn't an RPG. It's a fun game with an interesting story and a great world, but it's a shooter.

It's a curious phenomenon that I don't understand the cause of or the reasoning behind.

Things were removed. This is the plain reality of the situation. There is no need to sugarcoat that.

I personally prefer the new system. By forcing the level's on you, it helps with character progression IMO. If I can max the few skills I want maxed by like, level 10 the rest of that playthrough is going to be boring to me. And I don't much care for a game I just dropped $60 on to become that stale that fast.

I agree with you. I'm a really devoted fan but this sounds like a dumbed down console game now.

Edit: Wow! Auto censorship?! I called myself a f@n boi and my text was auto changed to 'really devoted fan'. WTF?!

I'm not really understanding the complaints about increasing SPECIAL stats. In 3 and New Vegas, players could choose the Intensive Training perk to increase their stats as much as they wanted to. Yet, nobody seemed to mind the perk's existence. So why are people whining about this now? Even without a level cap, the majority of people won't use one character long enough to max out every stats and perk in the first place.

Also, I feel that transforming skills into perks was a great decision. I always felt the old skill system made SPECIAL stats near worthless. The most popular example, placing 100 points into Barter and Speech, while setting Charisma all the way to 1 and still getting maximum benefits with dialogue and shopping. With this new system, all stats are significant in their own ways and require ample investment depending on the build of the character. This time, Charisma specifically is a stat that is actually worth investing in now. If one wants to charm and persuade others, they must invest points into the stat as well as take the perks under the Charisma column.

Really both sides do have fair points. Skills/Perks either one gets the job done really as you level up you can progress your PC proficiency.

But from what I have read it seems most people who do not like the new perk system, are really looking to play FO3 or FNV with improved graphics and dialogue.

I for one like the fact that by level 10.,I cannot sneak up on a group of Super Mutants and assassinate them like Agent 47, or be able to break into the most secure locations whether it be lock picking or hacking.

And as for the roleplaying effects from the lack of ability to create a highly specialized PC before you reach Diamond City is absurd, unless before your freeze you were a master locksmith or a recon Sniper.

The new system is different yes, but by no means worse, it actually makes you play the game and evolve as you progress.

I have to say I absolutely love FO3 and FNV but because there leveling was so similar FNV was not challenging.

I knew exactly what I need to do to be an OP Courier of the wastes, in no time at all.