Because so far whats been stated, at the beginning of the game..you pick your race, thats it. so when we are talking about strenght attribute being gone......see where Im going? I'd like a rational im not trying to change minds

Exactly. In this instance it's good that Strength is gone. An Orc mage should not be stronger than a Wood Elf brawler. It's not like the character is born at character creation, every character has some sort of past which defines who or what they are just as much or more so than race does. In that sense starting attributes for a race were restrictive. Give me racial bonuses like resists and weaknesses that are inherent to my biology, and let me choose my characteristics.

I don't feel good about having no obvious attributes. I tend to play magical chars, which always brought me into encumbrance trouble. But i was still able to put a point into strength once in a while, and used strength enchantments instead of feather, with the benefit of hitting harder when i ran out of Magicka. It was my choice to sacrifice a few attribute points of the "optimal Leveling" path if i wanted to go another direction, so i feel i'm loosing one degree of freedom. doesn't mean i wouldn't like the perks idea.

plus: having no attributes kind of reduces my enthusiasm about having the Enchanting Skill back on the list.

huh? why?


and Post above yours - yeah but as it stands there is nothing special about your wood elf or Orc so their inherent traits should still apply, they have no class, and your brawler isnt much of a brawler without a definition of strength, agility and endurance or whatever else would define a brawler, what good is skill without foundation?, also your elf is pretty much a blank slate as this time around your character developes over the Course of the game (perks) rather than having a base to launch from.

maybe i'm just used to push attributes with my enchantings. I may get used to other things, but i don't want most of the more complex effects to be active all the time - stuff like Detect life or chameleon or water walking start to get annoying soon.... so i'm left with resistances i guess

From a gameplay perspective everyone's a blank slate as far as "attributes" go, and it should be a blank slate. That allows me to fill in who my character was before the game started. I don't want a base to launch from. One of the reasons they removed major and minor skills is to remove bases like that.

Attributes were never boundaries for long, neither were racial skill bonuses. But I think starting from nothing is better than starting from something contrary to your goals. Now I get to make an Orc mage, unless they expand racial bonuses the other way.

Now we're just dancing in little circles, MK. Maybe I should start writing the report I'm supposed to write.

I stacked my Morrowind character full of Feather effects and never worried about encumbrance again. It was cheaper than Strength and I was mostly a mage anyway.

Different races are supposed to have inherent strengths and weaknesses. The blank slate is blank for your class, not what you were born with.

I can have both, so why not take both.
No reason.

The inherent strengths are reflected in the racial bonuses like weaknesses and resistances.

How many times do I have to say that before someone understands what I mean?

:whistling: maybe if someone else says it then people will understand, for some reason when I say something here its like I'm coughing rocks, then someone says the exact thing and its like an epiphany..


please provide an example of Racial bonuses

Infinity + 1 times.

I have explained time and time again why attributes (or skills) were not an accurate representation of a race's strengths because they were temporary and did not pass the level cap. That will be the last time I do so. You're welcome to disagree, but at least acknowledge it, maybe argue against it, instead of ignore it.

Please if you will provide an example of Racial bonuses.

mmk, I do not see why those would supercede Attribute bonuses and predispositions for a particular race. the argument you provided against Attributes (not mattering after a particular level) can be applied here as well. :/ so it seems this would have been an Impass.


let me not distract you any further from your report.

First of all, let's all just calm down.

We're all friends here.

The removal of attributes is a brave thing. I think what it really comes down to, is the design philosophy of Beth. Todd has stated several times they like to "completely start over" with each game. Take everything and throw it out the window, and start anew. This will naturally clash with people who love the old ways. Nothing wrong with that.

Now, the removal of attributes was a pretty crazy decision. When I first heard that, I was very confused. But, the more info I read, the less worried I become. First of all, I'm not taking sides here, but:

1) Have some trust in Beth. If anything, Fallout 3 has given me a lot of faith in their development skills. We're talking about a company that has some considerable industry experience, and I think they know a little more about TES than most of us do.

2) Keep in mind that we don't know everything. People are jumping to conclusions, but all we have is a couple trailers, some screens, and pre-release info of the same demo over and over again. Info is limited, let's save our arguments for when the game is out.

3) Development time. It plays a way bigger role than most of you probably think.

Well at the very beginning of oblivion you just picked race as well. Your differences were fairly minor in most cases except for maggica, sure a orc was a bit stronger but not a noticeable amount at level 1. The only real differences started to appear when you picked/made your class. Now you will be effectively making your class by doing the tutorial instead of going through the tutorial and picking a class that has no relation to what you just did in the tutorial.

Me too. Fortify Attribute was the best skill for enchantments (besides constant Restore Health / Fatigue in Morrowind). Fortify Skill could only replace it if they changed it so values above 100 would take effect. But sadly, we don't know that yet.

Interesting poll results

I already have an Orc mage in Oblivion. I made him in large part specifically because I wanted the challenge of making a character who ran contrary to his starting attributes. The same reason I have a female Bosmer with a battle axe.

Without starting attributes - without attributes at all - there would've been nothing at all special about my Orc mage, aside from his fangs, I guess.

I'd much rather have a character who's special for having overcome an innate disadvantage than a character who's just a different color.

...

I'm not even going to try to post sarcastically how ridicolus I think this "it's dumbed down" movement is.

I'm just going to wait unttil somebody brings up that we should boycott Skyrim, then I'll laugh...

This new system is so much better than Oblivion's in every way, just from the descriptions of it. It seems much easier to manage, while not "dumbing it down". I don't see it as they've removed anything, I see it as they're reorganised it.

I voted other....why? Attributes are gone,it's as simple as that. Let's move on.

Talking about jumping to conclusions, eh.
Maybe if we all hold each other's hands and say that we believe http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/6686/tiapft.jpg, it will happen!

Until then, I will doubt.

Doesn't matter either way, because the new system is here and the old system is gone and you (or anybody) can't do anything about it. No amount of complaining/whining will change the game. If you don't like the new system you have two choices:

1. Put up with it
2. Don't buy the game