Guess we can close the forums then. Unless all you want to do here is talk about how awesome Skyrim will be.

Closing the forums would be a good alternative, if I didn't have to see your posts anymore.

You have three options:
1. Put up with them.
2. Put me on your ignore list.
3. Don't visit the forums.

"This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Faulgor"

:ahhh:

Why would you not want them to improve on the attribute system AND include perks?

[off topic] how do you do #2? i have not seen this.

[on topic] i voted other because unitl i play the game with the new system i cannot make any judgements as to its usability or function and/or if its better or worse than the attributes system i am used to.
i do hope not to be dissapointed.

Posted this in another thread but this one is more appropriate.

I think perks allow Characters to be far more unique than attributes ever could. In the end all you had was a number that was inevitably the same; now we can choose what are character really is rather than being defined by the same old number.

Perks would make attributes obsolete anyway so why have both? Like they said they were removing redundant features.

For example:
Sure leveling agility can make you stagger less but why not replace it with a perk for say your armor skill or block skill that does the same thing and also allows you to get more than that beyond that with other perks?

Or sure your strength could make melee weapons do more damage but why not just have a perk for each weapon skill that increases damage and plus you can get even more perks beyond that?

Not to mention the ass backwards way you had to level attributes.

Plus stats usually modified by attributes (health/magicka/fatigue) are now increased with a boost at level up so nothing to worry about there....

The only thing I'm not sure of is how speed, jump height and encumbrance will be handled but I'm guessing something like armor perks for encumbrance and movement speed not sure about jump height though.(those are just random guesses from my small amount of knowledge about the game so far) they may even be decided depending on what race you choose, which would also contribute to making the races more unique.

So yeah attributes... Good riddance, perks are far deeper and more complex. Attributes would make the game dumbed down compared to perks not the other way around.

First perks in Oblivion is tied to a skill and arranged in a tree, see the screenshots of the skill menu and notice the star signs/ trees for perks over them, it has been no worlds of perks outside this and I do not know how they should add them, have a separate page for non skill perks? Perhaps another tree with no skill under, we only know that the system does not use fallout 3 perks with a list with perks with some requirements, usually level or attributes, but some had skill or alignment.
To emulate attributes with skills you would have to replicate a strength based perk over all relevant strength based skills. Leave it outside and you have no skill requirements for it.

Over to attributes, attribute levelling in Daggerfall to Oblivion was done bad, simple solution is just to level them up as you level up skills, raise two hands or one hand weapon two and you increase strength by one, some mods in Oblivion did this and it worked well.
However this make attributes a bit redundant and equal to skills except that they could be raised from multiple skills.
In Skyrim this is a bit of a weakness as it punish specialisation, in Oblivion it was smart to kill weak monsters with hand to hand or blunt if you had blade as major skill as it would level up faster making it easier to get +4 or +5 to attribute.

Dropping attributes and simply replace them with the highest fitting skill would make sense here. Perhaps using hidden attributes or simply a function if you need a strength based check or similar.

I think it increases specialization because you can specialize your skills in many different ways eg.picking multiple perks or upgrading previous ones. so we'll have to agree to disagree there .
It may have been smart to use hand to hand to increase strength but that's what I'm talking about when I said ass backwards way of leveling because I would have to use skills I had no use for simply to raise my attribute. I can't get stronger if I weild a sword? That's just stupid.

Perks get around that because you could (theoretically) get a perk under the blade skill that simply increases the damage (same effect strength had on blade at least I think anyway) and it cuts out the stupidity of using skills you didn't want to and you get the same effect, plus you can do more with perks. I see no downside. Of course you can like attributes if you wish i have no problem with that but calling it dumbed down (not you but other people) is a complete demonstration of ignorance IMO.

This is so wrong in so many lvls.

Perks are the tool of the lazy and uncreative mindset, they are the poor work quick exit. They are immersion breaker and cheezy adition coming from action games not RPG, shouldn t belong here


A perk that gives bleeding ? Patetic, because a blade doesn t give bleeding naturally who never cut itself and saw the blood flow. No need freaking perk just insert this in the skill increment.
No more armor skill, so from night to day , you fart, and ditto you know how to perfectly use armor, just because you know how to wear it. Full plate ? Pathetic !

This is the lazy implementation of the MATRIX symdrome: I KNOW KUNG FU, the answer to the lazy problem of not willing to commit, same in TES.

You know how to use swords but not a dagger wich is essentially a big knife... right another idiocy, you need a perk for it.

I could ridicularize probably 90% of the perk implementation if i knew what they are and show a more plausible and seemless proposition to implement whats intended, but it would do the dev work and think out of the box. Which isn t much Bethesda terrain nowaday... Nowaday its streamlining inside the box. A shame.
I m waiting from eastern europe companies, they seem to be the only one to still have balls and brains in the gaming market.
Basicly perk is the lazy work of developer not willing to think about interviewing skills toghether (similarity skill development, branching skills and etc) not willing to implement features in the game. A perk is much more easy you switch a button on/off and F***K logic, F***K immersion, F***K plausibility. Welcome DIABLO style of gameplay, next step in TES VI serie is isometry view ... awesome!
It becomes Barbies goes to wonderland with a horny helmet, Mario Bross 1 rst person, or maybe 2D as the serie is clearly involuting in brain use and gameplay implementation.

This perk sistem is issues of jerks that cry they could go ubber.... now we will have jerks crying they can t go ubber (probably the same that cryed they could 100 everything)....lol.

I Agree, the fact that you had to use minor skills that you probably would never use like Hand To Hand or Alchemy just to raise Attributes is bad. I'm glad the system has been changed to make skills matter more this time around. Perks can easily replace Attributes with no problems and this system allows for more customization of how you level up unlike in Oblivion where we just choose the Attributes which sometimes were out of our control if we didn't Efficient Level.

People love to confound a really bad implementation with a bad system. Confouding causes and consequences seems to be a must mowadays and not only here.

It was a big mistake calling them perks.

The sad truth is if perks were called "feats" ,"abilities", or "techniques" no one would care half as much as they are.

If I knew where you were I would slay you because you're a troll
Also I like how you made up a stupid idea for a perk and then complained calling it stupid like it was bethesdas idea or something Lol

Are you sure because I'm willing to bet that a whole bunch of people modded out Oblivion's flawed leveling style and why was it flawed in the 1st place Attributes and Level Scaling. Both of those are gone in Skyrim and going back to a bad system doesn't make sense game play wise and money wise. The Perk System should be fine and will allow for more customization of the character's leveling. Why should be worry about a Battle Mage raising Hand to Hand a Skill that he would never use just to get a +5 in Strength, it makes no sense to me.

Perhaps they could have changed it to work better but they didn't. They made an entirely new system that equals and surpasses the previous one IMO. I'm not trying to say they couldn't fix it (I'm sure they would try that first before creating an entirely new one) but seeing people defend the previous way with attributes like they were in oblivion as compared to the new one is just strange to me. No matter how I look at it it just seems to bring everything the old one did, fix all the problems of the old system and adds even more.

People may like to confound causes and consequences but they also like to hate change even when it's apparently for the better.

Both, I really don't understood their removing, perks and attributes can work together not replace each other.

Lets hope your right about the new system. I have the strong suspicion that the majoirty of the perks are going to be boring and generic hidden damage modifiers. basically Beth is trying to run "The Ol' Switcharoo" aweing the sheep who can't see it is the same system with a fancy new interface. I would much rather actually have something innovative than a flashy neon star page whoring itself to me.

If in the next game they said they replaced all skills with perks also would you be so cavalier about it?

Not going to believe this whole "less is more" rolling back in features until I can see it; For now, I can't see how this is any better than Dragon Age 2's taking out inventory, dialogue, and stripped down everything into a turd.

'm fine with the new system as we don't have to grind each lvl anymore.

Todd said in the interview http://bethblog.com/ ("Todd and Tim talk to XPlay") why attributes aren't there anymore.

They arn't taking all the attributes out. There are the three main attributes still in the game. And with the perks it gives people more chance to become BA and do cool stuff.(Hopefully)

Perks will make characters more diverse and it will reward you for focusing on a particular skill unlike Oblivion where your Attributes would've suffered because you raised Blade up too many points this level.

Other: No attributes, no perks.

At least none that are readily visible.