I disagree with the idea that perks or attributes are better or worse, because they're just that; an idea. They are variable and come in many forms and variations. To claim one is better than the other is a mistake. Now, we can EXPECT attributes to have acted a certain way based on how Bethesda has worked in the past, and we can do the same with perks.

Personally, I once wished for attributes to level a naturally with skills, and perks to exist just about like right now, but not having attributes is fine as well, because what they represent is now part of skills and perks instead. We effectively lose nothing, and gain more organic leveling, in addition to a huge number of perks that let us flesh out our character far more than addition stats to one of eight attributes (That everyone else has, mind you) ever could.

Let's think. Some aspects of certain attributes were poorly implemented? Should we fix it so it makes more sense logically and gameplay wise? Nah, let's just completely remove it!

I want both. both were in OB, they are improving perks in SK so why not improve attributes too instead of trashing them.

I voted Perks with no Attributes because that's what we're getting. I'd take Attributes too if they add them back, but I'm fine with just perks.

What about an option for "won't really know until I've tried the new system?"

but we do know. they announced that there will not be attributes. this is more a poll on what there should be instead of what we know what will be.

Perks definitely.
With perks, you can just "do" instead of fill out an excel spreadsheet so to speak. If you want to RP as a Magicka wielding 2h axe user, do it. It's just more natural and flows better now.
That = immersion.

Agreed, that was terrible. Who ever thought that made for a good leveling experience.

Both is a good decision. Removing attributes removes the ability to model different things. Perks add customization. But they should be together.

"Simplifying"... "Dumbing down" "Streamlining" ... call it what you want. I am 100% in favour of a more focused approach to how I develop my character. You all need to realize that all those attributes, at the basic level, affected your magicka, stamina and health. Aside from encumbrance and a tiny handful of other exceptions that had no real, tangible substance (personality, etc.). And as Todd clearly said, all the attributes are still in the game and scripting, they are just meshed into your skill trees to make the process more organic. Instead of choosing to increase 3 core attributes based on what I've done during a level-up period, it does it for me and I just choose to increase and beef up other areas of my skills. Skills = Attributes. Naturally, if I study mathematics, my intelligence level on that subject will increase. I wouldn't read 10 papers on particle physics and then decide some time afterwards that I want to retain the information I gathered at some basic, "subconscious" level.. which "subconscious" definitely describes TES attributes anyway because they weren't the be-all, end-all factor to determining whether or not you were good at something. Why maintain more, redundant steps to go through in order to be better at something, when something more "streamlined", or "dumbed down" can offer a more organic, natural alternative?

Less is more.

Perks with no attributes though technically we have 3 attributes (Health, Stamina and Magicka)

The difference between attributes and perks is that players always want to maximize attributes but perks offer the player choices to how they want to play. ive never met a player, aside diehard RPers, that would pass on the chance to have a mage with 100 strength. this way, if a mage wants to be a mage, he chooses magic based perks, and melee and stealth are left out. if he wants balance he can choose perks for magic, melee, or stealth. This not only adds depth, but replay value also. I vote perks

(besides, imo, attributes were totally broken in past games... Just saying haha)

Both, without a doubt.

The very idea that basic things like strength, intelligence and agility have no bearing on character development is flatly and unequivocally ludicrous. Every single person posting on this forum has their own "attributes" for strength, intelligence, agility, speed and so on. These aren't imaginary things that Beth just threw into the games at one point and can just as arbitrarily take out - they represent real, measureable qualities.

I don't know if it's "immersive". Gain one level and suddenly your axes cause bleeds where they didn't before?

But TES leveling was never immersive. Skills leveled more immersively than just about any other game, but we were still plagued by the "After jumping against a low ceiling for three hours I went to bed and found myself more intelligent/charismatic/lucky!" dilemma.

I think a GCD/nGCD leveling system is most immersive. Every skill level up counts toward multiple attributes in varying amounts depending on the skill, and attributes increase mid-level. The character only gains a level every so many skill level ups, but it does nothing to attributes. It's just there to tell any level scaling that "Hey, I've been getting tougher".

why are we pitting the two together, perks are not bad and neither are attributes. thats not the issue, at least I don't think its the issue.

I want my mead and to drink it too.

Both would be nice.

The main thing I am happy about is that the grind has gone. Unfortunately how the distinct advantages of attributes will translate into perks has not been explained very well and needs further clarification. I think when information obout leveling has been released only partially then everyone adds into the debate with wrong assumptions and right assumptions but no one knows any better.

In what way are perks different to attributes in terms of what you are saying, here? If you want to be a mage, you choose willpower and intelligence. If you want balance, you can choose attributes for melee, magic and stealth (by choosing those skills, and perk tree options will likely be based the same way).

You're looking at it at face value.
It's called roleplaying. Stop looking at numbers only.
Yes, your "axe" skill increased. Your ability to use an axe. Your prowess with the weapon has increased. I can throw a throwing star. But only a "master ninja" or whatever the hell they are called can do the wicked things with it that are intended.
I can swing an axe. A master of an axe can swing an axe in a way that causes internal bleeding.
It's pretty immersive, yeah.

Because why spend development time on trying to fix a heavily flawed system when you can make a new system that does what the old system did an more? The reason why they don't spend time trying to fix attributes is one, what's the point if you the new system does the same thing and more and secondly, if you keep piling on old systems on top of new systems then your going to just have a game full of redundancies that will most likely lead to overpowered resonance between the old and new system. Really it just comes down to the only reason to keep attributes because it was in older games but there is no reason to keep them when they have been replaced by a newer and more effective system.

Attributes in the end have always been a fairly boring game mechanic to me. "Oh I added +1 to my STR and now do 0.15 more damage with my sword than that other guy"

The perks system sounds a lot more interesting and versatile. "Do I want a perk that adds a bleed effect on my sword attacks or do I want a perk that grants me a chance to perform a special sword attack?"

I'm really looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

Again, as I already pointed out on another thread, you have absolutely no idea whether or not the new system "does what the old system did and more" or that it's "more effective" or anything else of that nature. It is your opinion that that's the case, but neither you nor anyone else will actually know until we get the game and play it.

I choose.....


X Other (explain)


Personally, I'd like a chance to see the new system in action before I rush to judgement on it. Wacky idea, eh?

Yes, but you learn the ability to cause internal bleeding overnight. I think that would be a talent learned and improved over time, not all of a sudden upon character "level up". You can roleplay it away of course. You can roleplay your way out of every oversight, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be addressed.

Multiple ranks for perks would help alleviate that. Then over the course of several levels you can watch yourself improve a talent that you learned overnight.

But we do have attributes!
There's three of them: Health, Magicka, and Stamina. :tongue:

Meh. I think I'm fine with perks.
The new system sounds fine to me.
All the things that attributes did are still around.
You affect the things more directly, but just can't see the attributes.
They're just invisible...

Just my opinion. Please don't chase me with virtual pitchforks... :unsure:

This poll is very telling.