But not 2 handed weapons. Problem still unsolved.

He was referring to the redundant and pointless attributes that barely had any impact on one's character. He wasn't referring to the games as a whole.

Other RPG systems have proven time and time again that a combination of perks and attributes work fine. In that regard, I think Todd Howard's plan of having 3 major attributes and then perks is good enough. I don't want to moderate between magicka regen and total magicka, I just want magicka. I think perks really help out when it comes to total customization as well. But it shouldn't be just attributes or just perks.

We don't know if one-handed perks will affect two-handed weapons or not. For all we know, both skills will have perks associated with them that will increase all melee damage, as well as more specialized perks like axe bleeds.

Yes I guess there would be general 'one handed ' perks and more specialised perks geared towards certain weapons within groups. But if I pick up a 2 handed weapon my 120 kg beefcake warrior is no better than a 50kg mage.

Unless they have synergies between the perks.

Blinders, mmmk.

I'd love to know when perks starting being applied to race when the information we've been getting is

280 perks for 18 skills who branch in trees 15 each, so that players as they get more proficient in a particular skill get PERKS (I.E REWARDS) for their hard work.

I do not see how this seperates a Nord from a Argonian from a Breton from a Woodelf

and I do not see why Attributes and Perks and Skills could not work in conjuction and supplement to each to each other.

this is where we need more detail on the mechanics rather than the solid info we have now. I do not think there will be synergies.

And I do not see how attributes (or skills) separate a Nord from an Argonian from a Breton when by the time they're level 5 they can all be the same anyway.

I made a decent post on the last page you could respond to. Better than "blinders" trolling.


I don't either, but Bethesda must have. Either by decision or by laziness, we're not getting attributes.

I'll take a look and give you my thoughts.

It separates each individual from the next. This is far better than picking your race and birthsign and having these be the only distinguishing factors between people who have leveled up to be Masters of Everything.

It's called an epiphany -- a great moment of realization and clarity.

The night was cool, calm and darker than most, but the skies were left clear of cloud cover and haze and seemed to come alive with the twinkling stars of the warrior, the thief, and the mage. Jurgen lay on his back in a bed of wet grass and coarse hay and gazed up at the nebulous formations, pondering the many battles of the past few days. His swordwork had drastically improved this past week and many foes had felt the sting of his blade, but it was his skill with an axe that he contemplated this night and a new level of understanding was on its way. Loosen my grip, he thought; swing a little sharper, he thought; widen my stance and pivot my weight. His focus was perked in that instant as he stared up at the Warrior's face -- the knowledge required to cause a bleed out, did flood his mind and fall into place.

Ouch. Typing in my own quote makes it hard to quote you.


I didn't say they would. If there are race-specific perks, which there probably won't be, then they can fill the role from level 2 onward (or from the beginning if we get a perk for level 1). I did, however, say that racial bonuses can and should fill that role. They already did, just need to expand them.


Then we agree to disagree here. But remember two things. One, races started with different skills too, and there is nothing to make me think they won't in Skyrim. And two, again I did not say that perks would replace starting attributes. That's the domain of racial bonuses.


Ah see, I think you're confusing what I mean by racial bonuses. I don't mean the starting attributes, which after only so many hours of play were negligible. I mean the passive bonuses like Breton's 50 Resist Magicka, or greater and lesser powers like Redguard's Adrenaline Rush. THOSE are what define the races to me. Those are either difficult to replace if one chooses another race (wasn't too easy to find 50 Resist Magicka on less than three items) or impossible to replace like powers.

Let me reiterate: Starting attribute bonuses are significant at level 1, but by level 10 a Redguard mage will be only slightly less effective than a Breton mage, if at all. Races were only as unique as their passive resists and powers. Which I like, because it allows freedom for roleplaying. Want to be a Nord mage? Go ahead. Once your Intelligence and Willpower are 100, you're no worse off than a High Elf. Maybe that's unrealistic, but that's how the system worked in the past and that's how the no-attribute approach in Skyrim will work as well. In fact, if they alter race passives as a way of replacing starting attribute differences, races will actually become MORE diverse and specialized to a role.


No one knows, because no one knows what the perks are yet. Maybe the damage bonus isn't exclusive to one-handed swords. Maybe it extends to two-handed swords. Maybe it extends to one-handed weapons of all kinds. Maybe it extends to all melee damage. Maybe there is no damage increase perk, and they're all unique things like critical chance or bleeds. We'll have to find out. So really, no sense bemoaning the system too much until we learn more.


Clarify what you mean by grind then. I took it to mean we'd still have to keep a close eye on which skills level when, and train one skill exclusively to get 5 attribute modifiers.

Wyatt: Epiphanies are the stuff of romantics and writers too lazy for proper character development.

To this one, just because I've seen this idea that eliminating attributes eliminates grinding presented too many times -

Attributes - "I want this +5 to strength." Grind, grind, grind, grind....
Perks - "I want this axe bleed out perk." Grind, grind, grind, grind.....

Unless they grant perks to anyone at any time rather than making access to them dependent on skill increases, I don't see how it could work any other way, for those so inclined.

And I include that last proviso because I never ground under the old system. I can only hope I won't have to under this one....

Remember my response last time? Stop trying to shoot down other peoples points in a discussion. It is an opinion thread, it's kind've taken for granted that what people say in it is an opinion unless they say otherwise explicitly...

I think it is. Two handed weapons are not similar to one handed weapons. You shouldn't do equal damage with them.

No, but you should do more damage with them with a weakling mage who never picks up weapons ever.

It never made that much of a difference. The additional damage strength applied to one's attacks, especially with low skill, still wasn't enough to make it worth using that weapon with that low of skills.

Because we still have racials.

True. But there are so many perks for each skill that you could, if you so chose, choose every perk for three, maybe even four skills. If you're going to be using axes while you level up, eventually you'll reach the necessary level for the bleed perk, and as long as you pick it by level 50 you're done (unless there's two or three ranks, then by 49 or 48). Maybe some players will want it earlier than others in order to maximize what their character can do as early as possible, so they'll try to level nothing but the one-handed skill to get it as early as possible. But no matter when you get it, there's still a hard limit of 50 perks. You've gotta pick 49 more.

The old grinding system with +5s was almost necessary at times (for players looking to maximize their character's abilities, not for others like you or me). You could gain at most I think 52 levels in Oblivion for a max level of 53? That's with all Major skills at 25, so no racial bonuses. That's just enough to get 100 Luck two levels below the cap, leaving you with a total number of 106 attribute choices (2 x 52 + 2 for the two 3-choice levels). Assuming an average of 40 per attribute in the other 7 attributes, you need 420 attribute points to max your character out. That means that on average you need a x4 modifier for every attribute increase for every level to make your character as strong as possible. If you're into that sort of thing.

There are no strict requirements like this for Skyrim. Want a good perk early on? Grind for a few levels. Regardless of how you level, once you level 50 times you're basically as strong as you can be as far as perks are concerned. To be as strong as possible in Oblivion, you had to level up very meticulously the whole game. I wouldn't want to, but I understand that some people hate the thought of being weaker than they could be.

How is this going to be the case when attributes varied initially for each race some greater and some lesser than normal and Attributes are now gone?


In Oblivion and under, Attributes AND skills varied by race initially and attributes buffed Skills. and continued to do so throughout the game.

Why is this such a hard concept to grasp that all 3 (Perks, Attributes, Skills) are nearly impeccable in creating a diverse character system instead of relying on perks? and the current notion that since Strenght for example is gone will it matter the punch of a level 1 Wood efl vs the punch of a level 1 orc.

Attributes are one of the core parts to RPG's -- taking them out just svcks. But I didn't really like how TES handled them in the past either. Attributes should be more-or-less static, and remain low, like SPECIAL in Fallout. It gives your character a base set of strengths and weaknesses to work with.

Perks are an excellent idea -- but I don't see why they should have to take the place of attributes. They should be able to coexist just fine.

Because what makes you think that racials can't be altered? They have from game to game before, no reason they wouldn't be able to be changed to fit within the new system. Also, we still don't know if powers or greater powers are still in the game.

Like he and I have been trying to say, the most important racial bonuses are the passives not linked to attributes. Resistances, weaknesses, magicka bonuses. Those will still be in the game, and I hope they're stronger to compensate.


BUT once those attributes and skills hit the cap of 100, there is no difference between two races. The difference is only temporary, which is only the illusion of diversity.


It isn't a hard concept to grasp. I think most rational posters are not trying to say that attributes were completely useless. Most are saying that, if we can only have one or the other, perks are preferable for multiple reasons. Real, not illusory, diversity between two characters of any race or build for one.


They will probably start with difference Hand to Hand skills, if there is such a skill, so yes the punch will be different. Just as different as the old system. Not to mention the possibility of new racial bonuses which may make some races naturally hit harder.

And who's to say my Orc mage should hit harder than a tough little Wood Elf brawler?

Oh, and Hand to hand probably isn't the best skill to use as an example because its damage has always svcked. I'm not sure if there's even a difference between a race with 50 Strength and 5 H2H and a race with 30 Strength and 5 H2H from level 1. They'd probably both just hit 1.

I don't mind a system similar to Fallout 3 with perks as you level up, I'm happy with whatever they go with as long as there aren't any skills that take forever to level up, like athletics and acrobatics in Oblivion, those skills had useful perks unfortunately, so I missed out on them because I didn't want to spend 50 hours swimming in a lake or jumping off of cliffs.