I was browsing mods for both Oblivion and Morrowind, and I was impressed at how modders over the years have come up with a lot of excellent ideas about these "special kinds of playing characters". And I'm talking about features that influence gameplay, not just cosmethic ones.

So I started to think about how Skyrim will be using perks for character development and had a sudden thought: why not develop the gameplay of vampires and werewolves through the use of a special type of perks?

Let's say that, when you become a vampire or a were-creature, you only have the very basic traits connected to it: as a vampire, sun harms you and you need to drink blood but you gain some relatively small advantage; as a werewolf, you need to kill every once in a while and are vulnerable to silver, and you gain some other kind of advantage.

Now, the game keeps track of how much blood you drink/how many victims you kill, and use this data to mark your "progress" as a vampire or werewolf.
So, the more you act as a vampire or werewolf, the more powers and limitations connected to your condition you will gain.

For example, a vampire could gain the perk of masking his/her undead condition if well fed; could gain a powerful/cheap Absorb Health spell but lose the ability to heal with Restoration magic; could gain a power that gives increased combat abilities at the price of becoming bestial-like (claws, fangs, fiery eyes and the like) when the power is activated; etc.

Of course, this progress as vampire/werewolf is in addition to the normal character progress (levelling, rising skills, etc).

It's just a skeleton of an idea, just to give you the "concept".

The point is: the more you play as a vampire/werewolf, actually acting like one, the more you will gain traits that characterize your pc as one of these creatures.
Also, this would give you a lot more control over the way you want to play your condition: you could go for a sneaky type, a brutal warrior, a master of the dark magics that your new condition allows to unlock, etc.

It sounds interesting, but would that mean that those perks would disappear if you went on a cure vamp/werewolf quest (assuming there would be one)?

I think it would make sense, yes. Since those perks would be deeply connected to being a vampire or a werewolf.

However, you would also lose the limitations connected to those perks: in my idea, every perk of this kind would bring a limitation with it.
For example, taking perks as a vampire that improve your ability to absorb life force from living creatures or improve your control on undead could limit your ability to use Restoration, to the point of finally blocking your use of it; gaining perks as a werewolf that improve your relations with wild beasts (maybe allowing you to summon wolves etc) could bring penalties to your relations with NPCs.

So each perk would be powerful and add value to the experience, but it would also bring new challenges.
Both characterful and interesting gameplay wise, I think.

it would be cool if a vampire/ werewolf gained access to a vampire/werewolf perk tree.

edit: maybe you could specialise in the magical/mystical aspect like consuming the life force of things around you or in the more physical aspect like increasing strength and speed. and a third specialisation in basic vampire stuff like gaining more strength from feeding or more resistance to the sun.

I like this idea since I plan to make a vampire and werewolf respectively. (Assuming gamesas is kind enough to give us werewolves. . . did I tell you how much I love you today Bethesda? *hint hint*)

I think this is a good idea. Gives a little more incentive to play as these.

I'd think there will be werewolves. Makes more sense in the lore than vampires. PC being a vampire doesn't make too much sense in Skyrim.

wow thats actually a very well thought out idea that would work perfectly with the game... if the game already tracks your progress i dont see why it couldn't do as you said with the blood and kill count... but hay even if they dont do that im sure the talented moding community will.

i would like to see base vampirism give weakness to fire, sun, silver and give you bonus to str,speed, and agility. the talent tree for them though should not be based on your lvl though but be based on your blood count (same with were beasts). that way if you become a vampire at lvl 50 you can still raise your vampire skills.

skills i would like to see (some may or may not be lore friendly to the skyrim vampire clans)

shadow meld - a chameleon spell that is active when you walk in the shadows
shadow jump - a short range teleportation between shadowed areas
speed - super fast running speed
jump - super jump height
bat form - turn into a bat
wolf form - turn into a wolf
vampire lord form - a beast like vampire state with huge bonuses the strength and speed but your health degenerates and you have to feed while in this form to keep from dying
ice meld - you can pass through ice surfaces like in the skyrim lore.

I like this, I like this a lot.
Could also help a lot with variety of NPC werebeasts/vampires.
Those lesser ones would be set to be young werebeasts/vampires and therefore have less abilities and be weaker and those elder werebeasts/vampires would have more abilities and be stronger.
Total support!
Also, this would make playing with one of those way more interesting and you would still have to work for your power and not become uber strong at the moment you become one of those two.

I think it's an excellent idea, but I did always love being a werewolf in Morrowind. Changing with the night moon, murdering and devouring an npc out for a night stroll. That would be epic! Not to mention, if there are werewolves, they would look sooo much more cool than in Morrowind!

Seriously though, I would be just a bit disappointed by a lack of werewolves. Skyrim's landscape is just perfect for a werewolves. And, please, don't put in werewolves, while not allowing us to change, cause I would be even more disappointed than if they weren't in altogether.

There's actually a vampire clan native to Skyrim.
They're skilled with ice/cold magics and can pull you through ice into their lairs, under frozen lakes and such.

Also, I really like this perk idea. Very cool.

Well, if not the lore, the geography makes great sense for werewolves - a mountainous, snowy tundra foresty landscape.

The best vampire mod I used for Oblivion was one that "leveled" you up per day over time. He had put about 60+ vampire levels in his mod and the first 5 or 10 or so were like your pre-vampire stages where your magicka would be drained and the sun damage was really high.

I found this mod to be the most lore realistic one because it forced you to sleep for several weeks before you were even capable of stepping outside into the daylight for a bit, and having magic powers back. The reward was that the longer you were a vampire (that is to say sticking to the disease and waiting out the bad early vampire "levels") the more powerful you eventually became.

Even when you were sleeping for a couple weeks you were forced every few days to find blood. It was very role-playable and several orders of magnitude better than the vanilla vampires in Oblivion.

I'd rather them be in and having it not contractable, than not at all. At least with the former, we'd have the meshes, animations, and sounds to work with to make mods out of.

Of course, I'd prefer them to be in and have it contractable from the get-go.

the cool thing about this is even if beth doesn't do it a good modder could. :celebration:

I really dislike the excuse that 'Well, if that's not in the game, modders will take care of it." What about xbox 360 or ps3 gamers who don't want to spend the money buying a new computer or upgrading an existing one. Computer gaming is more expensive than console gaming. I am comforted that Betheseda has looked at community mods for some gameplay features, but it upsets me a little that game developers have to rely on community modders, and cannot, on their own, come up with all the really cool stuff that modders come up with. Instead, console gamers have to be left out in the dark.

Not to mention, computer gamers have to worry about games not running on their computer, sometimes even if the system requirements do meet or exceed the game's specs. For example, I cannot play Morrowind anymore on my desktop, which used to run fairly smoothly, and now, will not allow me to move ten steps without pausing for at least half a minute.

I can play Morrowind on my dad's laptop without too much lag, but sadly, Bloodmoon (my favorite of the expansions, because of werewolves) does not work.

LOL, anyway, just ranting. I'm fairly certain we'll be able to become werewolves without modding. I wouldn't be terribly disappointed if it wasn't in considering all the other really cool stuff (random dragon attacks on cities, radiant story, npcs with jobs, jobs for the PC, etc.). Not having lycanthropy would not break the game for me.

It's not an excuse. As I said, I'd much prefer the ability to have them in and to become one in the main game. But if you can't become one, I'd rather they still be in as enemies for modders to play with. If Bethesda doesn't make them playable, then nothing you can do can make them playable on a console. In that case, why hinder modders for PC players?

I like it.

Whoa... when I posted this I thought "seems too easy, probably someone will point out something I missed".
I didn't expect this idea to be so well received.

The fact is, at the moment I'm about to play Morrowind again with a few vampire mods installed, and I stopped for a moment wondering how the progressive aquisition of powers change the way you play. It helps immersion immensely, since you are pushed to play in a way more and more "in line" with a vampire character the more time you spend in that condition.

Well... let's hope some dev chances upon this idea and like it, then.

That does sound like it would make playing as either more enjoyable - I played as a vamp for a bit in OB before getting bored and finding a cure. Having perks would get you invested in it, and chances are if you focused on developing that perk tree you wouldn't suddenly decide to get rid of it and then be disappointed that the perks were gone.

Well thought out, Easily implemented, Thumbs up from me

Great ideas. :goodjob:

This would be a natural extension of the more organic, less restrictive level progression Bethesda seem to be heading for with Skyrim in general; tying vampire and werewolf powers and advancements into that system would be pretty seamless, not to mention fun.

I think organic is the perfect term for the changes added to Skyrim. like, for one, why was everyone in oblivion right handed? And why could you cast spells with a weapon/shield when armor restricts magic?
I would love the chance to develop a vampire as i see fit, choosing perks enhancing my magic, physical power, or offering something like an automatic chameleon effect when sneaking (stealth)
as for werewolves, one big thing you could enhance with perks is your influence over other werewolves. Different levels of the same perk let you control more and more werewolves(creating a pack).
or giving me the ability to turn other people. With vampires, it could be pretty subtle, a light nip at night that could go unnoticed. For werewolves, it would obviously be more bloody and brutal, possibly even risky for the one being turned, after all, it would be hard to show restraint as a werewolf, and since it would be obvious to the NPC that they were bitten by a werwolf, you would have to stop them from going and getting cured (dragging them off to a cave or something)

I feel like I'm rambling.

SInce we get finishing moves in SKyrim, we can have a vampire finishing perk move. Feed on a weak enemy to regain lost health. After they are weak, use the perk to iniate a feeding animation to bring back health, draining them to their last breath while your wounds replenish. That would be pretty cool.