Perks got me worried : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:52 am

Huh?? I don't understand?? Just don't choose block as a perk until you have access to Shield Charge? I don't really understand what you're trying to say about the perk requirements?? It's not as if they are only available at level 20 and only level 20 or something like that.

First of all that's impossible because I need Shield Wall (I hope 1 rank) to move further down the tree.

Second I'm thinking about this, lets say lvl 15 with 81 one-handed, 79 light armor, 64 block, 37 smithing, 49 alchemy, 45 speech, rest under 20..
He looks at perks and realizes the shield charge he wants requires 80 block and that other perks in his reach do not interest him.
Now he has to grind shield skill for the next level to have a chance at that perk.
But now you say, well he can wait another level or two if he wants it so bad, but that doesn't solve the problem that perks that are available to him are 5% more potion effect, 5% more disposition bonus or some other X% boring "perk". Yeah he can choose to grind some other skill he hasn't already to get access to some other perk but it's also probably some %.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:48 am

Because this way not all characters can become super awesome. So every play through you can have a massively different experience, rather than the first few hours being different then gradually converging on every character being the same.

So you'd rather all characters end up the same for a larger amount of time than the few hours in th game where your character is drastically different?? It's not like all the races are going to have the same stats. Orcs will still be good at combat, and Altmer will still be good at magic but not so much at combat.

Yes. I would rather have a detailed and loaded with options character creation than I would have 50 perks, half of wich are inane.
I would rather have a well implemented attributes and skills system than I would even more dumbing down since Oblivion.

The perk system does not make me happy in the slightest. I find it gimmicky, contrived, and a poor substitute for the system we had.

The removal of spellmaking, rumours about the loss of even more apparel slots, the rumours about weightless items, the return of the horrid quest marker even after all the feedback about it, all of this to my mind is bad, bad news. I am no longer optimistic about Skyrim.
I hope I am wrong, I really do, but if things turn out as I suspect I shall never buy a Bethesda game ever again.
Because that is what happens when you kick the face of long term supporters.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:09 am

First of all that's impossible because I need Shield Wall (I hope 1 rank) to move further down the tree.

Second I'm thinking about this, lets say lvl 15 with 81 one-handed, 79 light armor, 64 block, 37 smithing, 49 alchemy, 45 speech, rest under 20..
He looks at perks and realizes the shield charge he wants requires 80 block and that other perks in his reach do not interest him.
Now he has to grind shield skill for the next level to have a chance at that perk.
But now you say, well he can wait another level or two if he wants it so bad, but that doesn't solve the problem that perks that are available to him are 5% more potion effect, 5% more disposition bonus or some other X% boring "perk". Yeah he can choose to grind some other skill he hasn't already to get access to some other perk but it's also probably some %.

It wouldn't make sense to be able to shield bash if you haven't even mastered the basics of blocking. And I'm guessing your character is only getting perks related to a shield?? You don't think he could maybe pick a smithing or light armour perk?? How is this any different from having the old system where you got a perk at level 75 for block?? Would you have just ground block until you got to level 75?? Probably not, you would have used other skills and just waited until level 75. :\

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:33 am

I'm not saying that I should not choose to perk for shield bash or shield charge or whatever.
I'm saying that the game should not force me to take some % stuff to get there.
Whats the difference in block 30 and 34?? That 34 is closer to the 40 requirement for the next perk?

The passive stuff should be in the skill itself and the perks should be, you know what? PERKS..

Axe bleed = initial
Axe more bleed = perk
Axe break shield = perk
Axe whirlwind = perk
Axe dmg = skill

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:35 am

I'll have to see the other perks in detail to judge for myself whether or not perks will be worth it, but at this point, to me, it's a definite yes.

Alright, so perks were implemented, that means more character customization, and increased potency with specialized skills. I am personally glad perks are in, it will widen the gap in power between those who aren't skilled and those that are. With Block as our example, let's go over what perks you can obtain when you level-up with Block at, hypothetically, the right level. These perks are from this video, from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic6dKnv3WdU

Shield Wall ---- More effective blocking. Bland, but useful.
Deadly Bash ---- Bashing does more damage. Bland, but useful.
Power Bash ---- Allows you to do a Power Bash. Gives your shield bash maneuvers more damage in the form of a power attack.
Bash Disarm ---- Chance on shield bash to disarm. Typical, but awesome.
Shield Charge ---- Possibly gives your bash maneuvers a lunge attack.
Deflect Arrows ---- Worst case, reduces damage from arrows. Best case, negates damage from arrows. Shield up, of course.
Quick Reflexes ---- Perhaps you bring up your shield more quickly? Would make getting those timed blocks easier.
Riposte ---- Possibly a counter-attack of some sort after a parry with a weapon (or perhaps even a shield). Would explain why it's by itself.
Elemental Protection ---- Your shield will reduce elemental damage, or perhaps it might be an all-around passive resistance to elemental attacks.

A few of these are speculation, but even so, the difference in power between one who specializes in the art of defense, and one who doesn't is massive. Players are rewarded with powerful abilities and passive bonuses, at this point I don't see why perks wouldn't be a good thing.

However, perks like the passive bonus "Shield Wall", while useful, are bland and boring. It feels too MMOish, and spreadsheety, which I thought BGS was trying to get away from in the first place.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:01 am

So perhaps they should reduce the perk count, implement like 150 of the 'boring' perks (for example the +25% block and all its ranks, or just the ranks) into the skill number alone, and just have interesting game-changing perks left to choose from. I think that's a better system actually, It does seem a bit strange to waste all of these perks on things which should already improve as the skill levels up naturally.

On the other hand, the system as it is seems as though it will work. There's probably about 10 perks per skill which one would need to get in order to feel as though that skill was maxed out. So in 50 levels that's 5 skills that are 'maxed'. Or, it could be 3 skills which are maxed, and perhaps 3 or 4 others which are almost as good. Between 5 and 7 skills per character to have a substantial number of perks in by level 50 seems reasonable. If there were more then there would be the risk of creating an "uber" character which is just brilliant at everything and basically has no strengths or weaknesses, which goes against what making a character is all about, specialising.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:14 am

Yes. I would rather have a detailed and loaded with options character creation than I would have 50 perks, half of wich are inane.
I would rather have a well implemented attributes and skills system than I would even more dumbing down since Oblivion.

The perk system does not make me happy in the slightest. I find it gimmicky, contrived, and a poor substitute for the system we had.

The removal of spellmaking, rumours about the loss of even more apparel slots, the rumours about weightless items, the return of the horrid quest marker even after all the feedback about it, all of this to my mind is bad, bad news. I am no longer optimistic about Skyrim.
I hope I am wrong, I really do, but if things turn out as I suspect I shall never buy a Bethesda game ever again.
Because that is what happens when you kick the face of long term supporters.

What's the point of having a character creation that is detailed if after a 10 or 20 hours play it ends up mostly the same as if you'd have chosen different birthsign, major skills and specialization?? Just think of it as a sort of character creation at every level up if it helps. You get more choice with perks than you do with the old system, which you seem to be in denial of.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:53 am

I'm pretty sure they aren't skill trees, they are pretty pictures to make the perks interface look cool. If you have enough skill, take any first tier perk.
Anyway, stopping you from getting a perk that is too powerful for your skill is the entire point of skill requirements. If you need a perk that badly, use the skill more. If you need it now, not next level, tough, you haven't been blocking enough. As for micromanagement, if you have a long list of perks you will need by level 50 to get that perfect character, yes, you will need to micromanage your skills. Don't see how that is a problem. I won't do it, my characters will use whatever skills I feel like, and take the most appealing of the available perks. Sounds good enough to me.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:53 am

I'll have to see the other perks in detail to judge for myself whether or not perks will be worth it, but at this point, to me, it's a definite yes.

Alright, so perks were implemented, that means more character customization, and increased potency with specialized skills. I am personally glad perks are in, it will widen the gap in power between those who aren't skilled and those that are. With Block as our example, let's go over what perks you can obtain when you level-up with Block at, hypothetically, the right level. These perks are from this video, from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic6dKnv3WdU

Shield Wall ---- More effective blocking. Bland, but useful.
Deadly Bash ---- Bashing does more damage. Bland, but useful.
Power Bash ---- Allows you to do a Power Bash. Gives your shield bash maneuvers more damage in the form of a power attack.
Bash Disarm ---- Chance on shield bash to disarm. Typical, but awesome.
Shield Charge ---- Possibly gives your bash maneuvers a lunge attack.
Deflect Arrows ---- Worst case, reduces damage from arrows. Best case, negates damage from arrows. Shield up, of course.
Quick Reflexes ---- Perhaps you bring up your shield more quickly? Would make getting those timed blocks easier.
Riposte ---- Possibly a counter-attack of some sort after a parry with a weapon (or perhaps even a shield). Would explain why it's by itself.
Elemental Protection ---- Your shield will reduce elemental damage, or perhaps it might be an all-around passive resistance to elemental attacks.

A few of these are speculation, but even so, the difference in power between one who specializes in the art of defense, and one who doesn't is massive. Players are rewarded with powerful abilities and passive bonuses, at this point I don't see why perks wouldn't be a good thing.

However, perks like the passive bonus "Shield Wall", while useful, are bland and boring. It feels too MMOish, and spreadsheety, which I thought BGS was trying to get away from in the first place.

All of these are things that belong in the skill tree, or in magic/ enchanting.
None of thes perks either impress me or seem gamechanging.
As I said, they seem gimmicky and a poor substitute for the things we could already do, had they not removed all that.

So what exactly is the point of perks?
To me it seems the sole point is bringing a very small amount back of the stuff we have lost.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:14 am

I'm not saying that I should not choose to perk for shield bash or shield charge or whatever.
I'm saying that the game should not force me to take some % stuff to get there.
Whats the difference in block 30 and 34?? That 34 is closer to the 40 requirement for the next perk?

The passive stuff should be in the skill itself and the perks should be, you know what? PERKS..

Axe bleed = initial
Axe more bleed = perk
Axe break shield = perk
Axe whirlwind = perk
Axe dmg = skill

That's a slipperly slope. Without defining certain barriers (using numbers) where you can or can't do something it will just end up with no skill requirements and all perks out of the book.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:04 am

It wouldn't make sense to be able to shield bash if you haven't even mastered the basics of blocking. And I'm guessing your character is only getting perks related to a shield?? You don't think he could maybe pick a smithing or light armour perk?? How is this any different from having the old system where you got a perk at level 75 for block?? Would you have just ground block until you got to level 75?? Probably not, you would have used other skills and just waited until level 75. :\

He is lvl 15..
He took the perks for one handed swords that he had interest in.. Also the light armor. And block all the way to shield charge.. And alchemy and smithing too.
Now the choice for the next level is either 5% more potion effect, 10% more disposition, 20% more block or some other % stuff.
Hell take the block stuff but the system should not force him too if he didn't want it..

I'm saying make more interesting perks than 20% block or 5% potion effect and there will be no problem with this part.
I don't need 300 perks from which half are ranks that don't interest me..

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:22 am

What's the point of having a character creation that is detailed if after a 10 or 20 hours play it ends up mostly the same as if you'd have chosen different birthsign, major skills and specialization?? Just think of it as a sort of character creation at every level up if it helps. You get more choice with perks than you do with the old system, which you seem to be in denial of.

Because that was only a problem in Oblivion.
And it was a problem in Oblivion because it simply wasnt a good game compared to Morrowind.
This specific problem comes from the axing of skills. It was never a problem in Morrowind, because that game had lots of skills to choose from.
But Skyrim cuts even more skills and leaves a hollow shell of the greatness elder scrolls once had.

So, again, perks are a poor substitute for things we always had, but were removed for some incomprehensible reason.

» Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:59 pm

All of these are things that belong in the skill tree, or in magic/ enchanting.
None of thes perks either impress me or seem gamechanging.
As I said, they seem gimmicky and a poor substitute for the things we could already do, had they not removed all that.

So what exactly is the point of perks?
To me it seems the sole point is bringing a very small amount back of the stuff we have lost.

Can you please tell me what we've lost?? I don't understand??

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:58 am

That's a slipperly slope. Without defining certain barriers (using numbers) where you can or can't do something it will just end up with no skill requirements and all perks out of the book.

So you are saying that the light armor skill has no value in the game except to provide a barrier for light armor perks..
Meaning that rating which Elven armor gives you will be determined not by the level of your Light armor skill but by how many levels of "flexible protection" perk in light which increases your protection by 20% per rank, 5 ranks you took?

I would say a curse word now, but don't want to.
:flamethrower:

» Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:07 pm

I do think that the original poster is right. The changes to the leveling system are not really going to fix some of the problems from Oblivion. People will find themselves forced to watch their actions even more carefully in order to get the character they want. To get all of the blocking perks a charcter wants the player will have to be sure not to start too late. Start too late and that 50th perk (or whatever the limit is) will be chosen before reaching the level required to unlock it. You will have to be very careful now becasue changing your character design now could be very dificult or impossible.

One possible solution to the problem is to allow players to choose perks that have not be unlocked yet. I want a perk which reqires level 50 in that skill. When I level up, I am at level 48. Let me pick that perk anyways, but keep it inactive until my skill reaches the level required to use it. That wouldn't solve the problem, but it would make it a bit better.
Key game features really shouldn't be tied to perks, it has been tried before and it doesn't really work all that well. If I can time my block right, it should work, at least for normal enemies. Most if not all damage should be stopped below a massive damage threshhold (Giant swinging large club). The perks should improve this threshold and what happens when hit by damage over this threshold. I shouldn't be taking half damage from some weakling with a dagger simply because I didn't take the perk.

With any luck, if Skyrim is a disaster it will ensure that VI is actually an incredible game. At least one company that I watch has shown signs of actuallly learning from some of its dumb decisions.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:10 am

All of these are things that belong in the skill tree, or in magic/ enchanting.
None of thes perks either impress me or seem gamechanging.

Granted, we are talking about the perk list for shield usage which is kinda a bland one by itself.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:12 am

Can you please tell me what we've lost?? I don't understand??

Sure.
Attributes, a massive amount of skills, a massive amount of spell effects. Spellmaking. Apparel slots and customisation, birthsigns, classes.
Ability to wear clothing under armour, a free and non stunted or artificially hardcapped enchanting and alchemy.
Lots and lots of weapons and armour.
Open world. (one run and jump speed means insurmountable objects and I suspect invisible barriers.)

All these are things lost from Morrowind - Skyrim and this is just from the top of my head, Im sure there is more.

» Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:29 pm

He is lvl 15..
He took the perks for one handed swords that he had interest in.. Also the light armor. And block all the way to shield charge.. And alchemy and smithing too.
Now the choice for the next level is either 5% more potion effect, 10% more disposition, 20% more block or some other % stuff.
Hell take the block stuff but the system should not force him too if he didn't want it..

I'm saying make more interesting perks than 20% block or 5% potion effect and there will be no problem with this part.
I don't need 300 perks from which half are ranks that don't interest me..

There's no point arguing this because we haven't seen all the perks.

So you are saying that the light armor skill has no value in the game except to provide a barrier for light armor perks..
Meaning that rating which Elven armor gives you will be determined not by the level of your Light armor skill but by how many levels of "flexible protection" perk in light which increases your protection by 20% per rank, 5 ranks you took?

Pretty much. It does make you better at light armour, but not as much if you've chosen to specialize in light armour.

Because that was only a problem in Oblivion.
And it was a problem in Oblivion because it simply wasnt a good game compared to Morrowind.
This specific problem comes from the axing of skills. It was never a problem in Morrowind, because that game had lots of skills to choose from.
But Skyrim cuts even more skills and leaves a hollow shell of the greatness elder scrolls once had.

So, again, perks are a poor substitute for things we always had, but were removed for some incomprehensible reason.

It was a problem in Morrowind too. End game you could pretty much master everything. I still don't understand what we're loosing out apart from not being able to become a demi-god.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:09 am

If you've played any of the Fallout games, you'd know how well a perk system can add complexity to the game.

In Skyrim, it seems to be in place to pick up some of the slack left behind by removed skills and attributes.

It adds another level of character customization.

This.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:36 am

Lets not complain about perks until the game is out people.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:01 am

When the perk system was announced I was neither concerned or pleasedy about it, but watching it in the video raised my eyebrows to say the least.

- Boring perks
Shield wall in the video increases amount blocked by 25% and has 5 ranks.. Really? 5 ranks into this when I can get awesome stuff like Shield Charge or Resist Elements.. 5 perks out of 50 possible to get the max block amount? How does Beth mean to manage perks that change gameplay vs perks that... well, don't? Seems that a lot of those 280+ perks are just going to be like this..

- Artificial perks
Or perks that should have been a part of the game from the start. Looking at the same Shield wall perk I have to wonder what is my shield worth without that perk? To my understanding it should me modeled that either I time my block or I don't.. Either I get bruised (small hp and stamina loss) by the force behind the attack or I don't.. Either my shield gets damaged or it doesn't.. And get perks that allow me enhance those things (less durability loss, less bruising, less stagger). This is leaning too much a mmo where you have an attack for 100 and you block 40.. If you are moving forward from attributes, classes, birthsigns then move forward from shield block value.. Same can be said for axe cut perks.. Give us bleeds by default and make perks do MORE bleed instead of the perk allowing the bleed in the first place..

- Leveling stall
I understand that perks must have requirements.. If I was designing the game I would make it like that.. But I have to warn you what could happen is that people will again have to micromanage their skill gains not to level up when they don't have access to a perk they want.. Ex. I level to 10 and realize that the next level I will not meet the requirements for a desired perk unless I "farm" that skill and only that skill for the next level.. Now I know you are going to say lots of skills, lots of perks but it can still happen..

Thoughts?

I quite like the perks. You can be a real expert in shield use soaking up damage but you other skills are restricted. Bleeding is just for axe - it makes different weapons unique and are more interesting than just DPS.

» Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:24 pm

Lets not complain about perks until the game is out people.

Agreed.

You don't even know what "25% more effective" even means. So lets just sit and wait for the game to come out before complaining. Or at least wait till the Q&A is out.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:56 am

Give us bleeds by default and make perks do MORE bleed instead of the perk allowing the bleed in the first place..

I suspect there will be a scripting unction to give the player perks like there was in FO3. Before playing the game at all, I will open up the Creation Kit, make the park for axes affect all weapons to varying degrees (axe will still bleed more than a dagger obviously) and then make a script that give the player and all enemies this perk by default. Why? BECAUSE EVERYTHING SHARP MAKES YOU BLEED DAMMIT!

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:25 am

Guess they feel that there must be some sort of apparent difference between one who specializes in a particular skill and one who doesn't. Perhaps they feel that perks are a great way to reward players for dedication to a particular skill. I don't know what they aimed to do with perks, I was just highlighting what I saw in the demo and I'm speculating based on what I see.

The best word I could personally come up with to describe a couple of the perks is "bland". I think "gimmicky" would be a decent word, imo, to describe some of the more active perks, like Deflect Arrows and Riposte. I just hope they do something with the "bland" perks.

In my opinion, I'm sold to this idea completely, I like the idea of perks. I'm not on the fence about this like the removal of skills and attributes, I personally feel this will be a good decision. Sure, many of the perks could have just be baseline, like the Axe Bleed or Power Bash, but I think unlocking these powerful abilities is part of the fun. It serves as a milestone on your journey to master the skill. A proper reward for ages of dedicated blocking and parrying.

Perhaps they are trying to amend for the things they removed, kinda like the Doomstones in the demo for possibly birthsigns. I don't think it's fair to remove anything instead of trying to fix it, but I also don't think it's fair to judge something that isn't out yet. I don't think I will hate the new system, but if I do, it'll come as a shock to me.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:34 am

There's no point arguing this because we haven't seen all the perks.

It was a problem in Morrowind too. End game you could pretty much master everything. I still don't understand what we're loosing out apart from not being able to become a demi-god.

But that took (me at least) over 300 hours of gameplay on one character to get to that point, and many of my characters never even reached level 70.
Endgame, in that it takes such a lot of hours, its not a problem for me to be a demi-god.
In fact, if I am not a demi god at level 70, there is something wrong with the game.

I agree that in the vanilla Morrowind the point at which no-one could hurt you came too early, around level 30-35.
But that isnt too hard to fix, I imagine.