Oh, I'm fine with having other perks as prerequisites where it makes sense (in lieu of skill requirements), I just hope I don't have to work my way up a perk tree like Skyrim.

I still think that level requirements should be the primary means of pacing perk availability, with SPECIAL requirements working like they have in the past.

I can see your concern.

Based on what we know of the Perk Chart there is no reason why you would have to take work your way through them in order.

Other than the perks dealing with the Special stat, there is nothing to connect them together.

Gun nut is on row 3 of Intelligence.

Hacker is on row 4 of Intelligence.

Why would you have to take Gun Nut to take Hacker?

Since they are printing out the Perk Chart for the Pip Boy edition and in game they have it posted on the garage wall from the trailer, I'm thinking it is the main info on perks.

And since it has a header row of the Special Stats with 10 perks listed under each one for a total of 70, I'm thinking it is telling you how high your stats have to be before you can get the perk.

Well, I would be okay with that if you could save a perk point for a later level instead of being forced to choose something that you don't want. That's way worse than a perk being locked behind another perk.

Maybe Rank 1 Require corresponding points in that SPECIAL to unlock. Then Further Ranks then are level gated.

Example: Rank 1 Gun Nut requires 3 INT. Once this is taken you then need appropriate levels to further this Perk. Rank 2 requires level 10. Rank 3 level 15. Etc.

That is a good compromise.

If you have the stats for the higher perks, then you can get them, but you may have to wait to max them out.

I hope there is some kind of restriction to character builds that prevents you from becoming a jack of all trades like in Skyrim. I enjoyed how oblivion's leveling system gave you a different level cap depending on he starting values of your chosen skills, birth sign, etc. I always felt that to make the jack of all trades uber character in the fallout series required understanding of the leveling system and involved some preplanning to execute fully.

Getting one special stat, or skill particularly high should unlock interesting and unique perks.

We shall see!

It is looking good.

This all speculation, but I think we are pretty close to how it it is going to work.

The Sole Survivor starts with 28 points in Special Stats.

That gives him access to 28 perks based on the perk chart where you need a 10 in a stat to get the 10th perk under that stat on the chart.

If a third have four ranks at three perks to max them that is 3 * 9 = 27.

So 28 basic perks plus 27 to max 9 of those perks is 56 levels.

To just get all the perks you start the game with access to, it will take you 56 level if not more.

If you wanted to max your stats with the Intensive Training perk you would have to use it 42 times to raise everything to ten with access to all 70 perks.

That would put you at level 98 and you would only have 28 of the 70 perks available.

Now Stat bobbleheads and cyberware might let you raise each stat twice, but you would still have to be level 84.

And there will be opportunities to earn perks but some of them might be special perks.

It would still take another 60 or 70 perks to have max stats and all of the perks before we add in any perks from the DLC.

I figure most player will have completed the main game and the DLC by level 100 or 120 or so.

And the Sole Survivor will not even be close to be a Master Of All Trades by then.

I'm really looking forward to the replay value of Fallout 4.

Every Sole Survivor is going to be VERY different.

I'll be playing it for years.

You could very well be right.

But there is no question there will be cyberware.

The Institute was born of MIT.

They can create Synths that are indistinguishable from humans.

Plus we already know from F3 that the Institute can create cyberware from Dr Zimmer's reward for finding his missing android, wired reflexes.

They are apparently not forcing us to select anything upon level gain. There's no way on earth the perk chart shows numerical requirements for perk selection. It has to be levels. In Skyrim, you are required to attain a certain skill level to unlock some perks. In Fallout 4, I feel confident this will be replaced by your general character level, to preserve the utility of Intelligence in unlocking levels and perks so much the faster. There MAY be additional prerequisites, but nothing as dramatic as the Science! perk requiring high Int just to access it.

I'm assuming that there will still be things that raise your stats along the way just like in old games. Perks, Bobble heads, clothing and armor. So even though you'll start of with less ability points there will still be the ability to grow your character's stats which will allow you to take the better perks. If they have changed the system that much it might also be safe to assume that they' might have lowered the requirements for many of the perks.

That's pretty solid, but for one thing: they wouldn't lock off crafting that hard, would they? It's the centerpiece of the whole game.

I dont like power-gaming, and still I agree with you OP. Going straight for one special stat really high is a big opportunity cost. It would be perfectly balanced to not have a level requirement for the best perks if you decide to sacrifice a lot to get it early.

I actually agree with this, also anyone notice that in the Second Screen part of the E3 demo, that the level 24 character had only +3 Special stats compared to the start of the game. I actually believe that you will be able to raise a stat or get a perk each level for up to 100 levels, with potential bonuses from Bobble Heads and bonus effects. If you think about it an average character will be able to get Gun Nut, Hacker, Infiltrator, and Animal Friendship.

Is this confirmed? I haven't heard any official word about how leveling will work yet.

If it's just level requirements, then it isn't much of a hard lock on crafting. Many of the craftable items shown in the demo didn't have any requirements. Gun Nut could be had as early as level 3, and Science has been postulated to be on tier 6. This seems to be on par with progression in FO3--you had probably gained a few levels before you started getting schematics for craftable weapons, and energy weapons weren't readily available early on (with the exception of a few laser pistols). You would still be able to find and use energy weapons, and you could potentially unlock all the advanced crafting prerequisites before you hit level 10.

I hope perks are optional this time around, something that Skyrim did right and Fallout3/New Vegas did very wrong.

Level locking perks is not necessary if they balanced them properly. Given Bethesda's claim that there are 200+ perks, but we know that there are only 70 distinct perks, that means a lot will be ranked. As long as they made them equally desirable, specialization will not confer any imbalance to the gameplay, even at early levels. I would also not be surprised to see that they nerfed the starting SPECIALs to artificially slow down the perk progression, by moving the missing point into a 15 to 20 max. rank of Intensive Training. So between that and new perks like Local Leader (settlement building), I would hope that balanced desirability alone would constrain player paths.

Is it possible that we'll receive a number of points when we level (corresponding to skill points) and use them to buy Perks, rather than just picking a single perk?

I have a hard time believing that's an actual perk chart and that the perk system works as people expect. 70 perks is kinda low given how easy it is to implement perks and how many examples there are in past games, not to mention this would mean perks requiring both STR and END or the like are dead in the water.

So, I made a different thread to discuss what the perks may be and what they could do, http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1526182-what-are-those-perks-and-what-do-they-do/and was curious how some of you might think this will affect the question in this thread.

Our character has a level, and the game is probably balanced against it (as Bethesda's games and other RPGs usually are), and so I expect perks to come with level requirements.

I fear you are heading for VAST disappointment with this game then....Perks (with Tiers) appear to be replacing skills entirely.

I suspect that he's talking about the option to not spend the perk point immediately at level-up and instead save it for later when he might meet the requirement for the perk he wants.

I'm of two minds about this, myself--in Skyrim it made sense to save a perk point, since skills leveled independently from character level, so you might need to get a little higher with your weapon skill to hit the requirement for the next perk in that tree.

In Fallout, you only get to spend your points at level up, so sometimes you have to choose a perk from what's available at the time even if it's not the one you really want. If perks are made available by level requirement, then I think you should have to choose one when you level, so you can't save your points for all the powerful high-level perks. If perks are primarily limited by SPECIAL stat level, then I think saving a point is fine--maybe you're on the hunt for that bobble-head that will allow you to get the particular perk you're aiming for.

Ok, guess i misunderstood the comment, sorry. Yes, if the game is as heavily geared toward perks as it currently appears, then maybe being able to "hold" perks earned until a later time is a good thing.

Actually, since there is a specific option in the Pip-Boy to see the Perk Chart, I believe that is going to be somewhat similar to Skyrim's Skill option. I feel this suggests the ability to hold Perks, like Skyrim allowed you to, and it also makes sense after many comments about learning certain things from Skyrim. I mean why have the option to look at a perk chart (read: menu), when you can't interact with it? Especially, since they have a perk section on the Pip-Boy under stats. Also, there was a part in one of the trailers that shows a level up notification and there didn't seem to be any indication that it immediately required you to do the usual leveling up schtick from the last two Fallouts (though that may have more to do with that there wasn't much time to see what happened afterward). I believe that the Perk Section will include Perks from the Perk Chart and Quest/Challenge Perks (like Ant Sight or Lord Death), where as the Perk Chart will be a place to spend you level gained perks on the standard attainable perks.