Yeah, but how does blocking, block things that are not projectiles aimed at your shield? Not that shields should even do that in the first place.

This. I voted no but saw all the yes votes and read more posts.

We will have to see though....

You proved no such thing, and if you did, I would like you to point out where. I quoted the UESP to show an unbiased medium between us, and how they describe Attributes basically proves that they are in Skyrim under different ruses, save for luck and personality (personality is really just another word for universal disposition, which obviously can be increased by speechcraft)

That is incorrect. We will be getting 3 attributes.

You quoted UESP, which confounded your first statement on attributes. You effectively proved yourself wrong. Personality can not be speechcraft perks without losing variables. I dont have to be good at speechcraft to be personal, or vice verse. Just becasue you didnt understand what they did, doesnt make them useless.

Since there's no H2H skill, and no H2H perks, we already know that perks wont make up for cut skills, effectively limiting options and builds.

We are getting 3 stat bars called attributes.

I don't think anybody has said that perks are replacing skills "altogether," but perks are not "just the extra bonus," and that in at least two senses.

First - many of the perks we've already seen are not "bonuses" at all - they're just straight percentage increases to the skills, which could just as easily have been accomplished through.... straight increases to the skills. So in that sense already, the progression that one could normally accomplish through an increase in skill has been replaced with perks. Beyond that though, in at least some instances, perks are explicitly replacing skills - for example athletics, acrobatics and, if we're lucky and it hasn't been made completely non-lethal, hand-to-hand. In those three instances, at least, the skills are entirely gone and, aside from whatever gains we might be able to get out of adding to the three derived attributes, the ONLY way we'll be able to increase them (if at all) is through perks.


Um.... what? You can use any skill you might desire in Oblivion. There's absolutely nothing limiting you to your seven majors.

Maybe I miswrote what I meant: Attributes are useless only in name, their elements are still mostly in game, just under different guises and split into different categories. Personality can definitely be perks, there may be a perk that increase disposition by a little with everyone in the world, or a perk that would increase succesful haggles/succesful attempts to stop a friend from attacking

And that limits the previous variables, where you didnt have to be good at speechcraft to be personable, or vice verse.

Here's your quote on Personality and luck specifically:


Yeah, you didnt even know what they did until you looked it up, and even the UESP attributes article doesnt cover everything they did.



No, we'll be getting three derivatives.

I don't think it should be thought of like that. More like, H2H is now just a just-for-giggles thing to do in a Tavern, and Acrobatics and Athletics are out completely. The only skill i see being replaced by perks is Mysticism, which is really just being rolled into other schools of magic.

Well obviously i didn't know what they did, I didn't claim I did, and when I looked them up on the UESP they just further proved that the attributes do little else than what the 4 derivatives in Skyrim will do. And what didn't they cover? seriously, I'm getting tired of this, I tell you why I think removing Attributes was alright, you tell me other wise, I say they were useless given on what they did ingame, you said to go look up what they did on UESP, I did, I use it to further my arguments, you say "lol no nevermind they explained it wrong" What am I missing about these Attributes that make them so special?

The first part of this post confounds the second part. Attributes represent A, Skills represent B, Perks represent C, whats not to understand here?

more like: You didnt know what they did, you looked it up, it backed up my statement that you didnt know what your talking about. I never said they got it wrong or anything. Its obvious to everybody that saw your post, that you got it wrong.

Oh woops, I didn't mean that I didn't know what perks did outright, I meant more along the lines of I don't know why they're being such a big deal. Attributes represented A, skills B, and Perks C, maybe in the older games, but the Elder Scrolls is a dynamic series, it's changing, for better and worse. So it'd be fair to say Derivatives represent A, Skills B, and Perks C, even though perks weren't really in any ES games before Oblivion, and barely at that. I'm just trying to say why my opinion is justifiable, it's not like i'm starting a crusade against modders who will inevitably implement Attribute mods

Which is a dumbed down game. removing clear representations to appeal to newbs.

And that's where you just lost all respect from me. The game is different, and just because it doesn't appeal to you and your crowd, does NOT make it dumbed down. It's changing the experience of the gameplay for a different crowd, saying it's dumbed down is probably the most invalid form of argument. It's like saying red is ugly. Why? because red doesn't appeal to me, therefore blue is much more hardcoe and superior because I prefer it.

Its less complex, it lost representation. Its dumbed down. there's no H2h, no spell making, perhaps no speed or jump height variable, its dumbed down. Fact. Trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator and people that dont even like RPGs is dumbing down. Fact.

Yes, aslong as there good perks lol. Better be able to increase run speed, hand2hand, jumping, and other important stuff other wise i'll an angry buddy.

No, not at all. No H2H or Acrobatics or Athletics does not make it dumbed down, it just means less content. I don't see how they're trying to appeal to people who don't like RPGs when the entire game revolves around, oh, I don't know levelling skills through Experience, or heck, I don't know, ROLEPLAYING? You're just some elitist kid that thinks because it appeals to a different crowd now makes it less hardcoe. Seriously, the only thing worse than a casual player is the kind like you, the HaRdxCoRe Clutch Switch engaged players like you. So what if the game appeals to hardcoe and casual players? Oh right, that's impossible, we can't have the filthy casual plebians blighting my pure and clean hardcoe Master Race, right, Adol-, I mean, loyal Elder Scrolls Fan?

Sure, if you only want 70 perks or so out of the 280.

Perks are not replacing skills OP. BTW H2H was not "dumbed down". It has been completely removed as a skill and so have athletics and acrobatics been removed as skills. I support cutting h2h, acrobatics, and athletics because it is FAR more likely for large flying reptiles to exist than it is to have a humanoid who can PUNCH THROUGH [censored] PLATE MAIL, can jump 10 feet in the air, and run 40 miles per hour non stop. This is purely a matter of preference, this may ruin the game for some who have very far fetched fantasies. But because you can't be chuck norris reincarnate x999, doesn't mean that it is a BAD rpg, that TES is going CoD, or that it is even limiting freedom. Those who appreciate these skills are the minority, and if Bethesda tried to cater to everyone we would have a multiplayer medieval dating simulator.... in 3D. Next. Linear skill trees(PERKS) actually make your playstyle less linear despite the name. You end up in the same exact place at the ending of oblivion, if you have a mage or a warrior, no? No content is closed off to you based on your past decisions and you can do every single thing EASILY in one playthrough. Oblivion's skills were exactly the same. You got these lame ass auto perks at 25 lvl intervals and it barely made you feel more powerful. Someone could even get ALL their skills to 100, and thus obtain all the auto perks. Completely linear. Now with skyrim you cannot possibly become the best at everything, and following an archetype, or even a class of your own build, is far more rewarding than being a JoAT. A JoAT is still viable, but a specialized individual levels faster, and has access to deeper perks. You must think before you just squirt your skill points all over the rug.(if you want an efficient character). This is in fact adding more complexity. I will even express it WITH MATH approximately how much more complicated Skyrim will be than OB. Prepare for a glorious mathematical smackdown. I have 50 skill points. I pick 4 skills I like. I cannot theoretically max out all four of those skills without going past the soft level cap, because roughly 15 skill points can be sunken into each tree. In Oblivion I could get ALL of the 84 skill progression perks. But, most did not do that, so lets just say i max out my 7 major skills. I get 28 perks out of 82, easily in a 100 hour play through, MAX, much less if you use exploits. With me so far? so in Skyrim the average fan boy will get 50 of 280 perks, 18% of all perks. Perks that are not automatically tied to skill progression, and even allow differences between two players who follow the warrior archetype to a tee. In Oblivion the average fan boy gets around 28 perks. But let's lower that to 25 out of 80, which is 31% of all perks. Really, OB is completely linear in character progression, but based on the above calculations, Skyrim is still nearly twice as complex. This allows for far more variation between high level characters in Skyrim than in Oblivion. More variation is good, right? This was of course disregarding exploits, loopholes, separate enchanted greaves and chest pieces, goblin warlords, your mother, and the fact that if one were to put in enough time in OB, they could be the best at EVERYTHING! Something Skyrim's perk system does not allow. This will only apply to those who are aware that variation, and making decisions that actually matter in-game, adds more roleplaying possibilities, replayability, satisfying character progression, and better gameplay. But all of this hinges on whether or not you can re-spec in Skyrim, and if you can, how many times, and at what penalties?

So it's looking like this:

You level up, you choose three slots in which you want to increase prime attributes which are

Health
Stamina
Magicka

You can choose any three up to three times such as Health, Health, Stamina or Magicka, Magicka, Health or even Magicka, Magicka, Magicka if you so desire

You pick a perk, or you can save it for later as you desire. There are probably base perks you can select for all of 18 skills which do not require a certain number of skill points, but essentially the best perks require a significant amount of rank ups in a particular skill.

So if you wan all the best perks in say 2 handed weapons, you must use 2 handed weapons a lot or else the better ones will not be available to you.

This is the system so far as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong. Something close to this system may be different but I really see nothing wrong with it at all and I've been an ES fan for 10 years and I am welcoming fresh change with open arms, but it seems some people are not, and that's too bad.

All we know about this perk is that it's called "Elemental Protection" and that its in the Block skill tree...
Now as to what this perk actually does we can only guess, It could be a flat reduction to fire/frost/shock damage while a shield is equipped, or it could be a reduction to damage from a projectile aimed at an actively blocking shield, or it could be a percentage chance to reflect an incoming elemental attack.
(Personally the latter two are really interesting to me, not being able to protect against the traps or aura type effects, but rather using a shield as its namesake... a shield).

Think about it this way: I am standing in front of you with a flamethrower, and in 5 seconds I will shoot a jet of flame directly at you. You have a choice to

a) stand there and take the flames in the face
B) lift your steel tower shield in front of you between your face and the flames

In which case will you be more seriously burned?

(btw I'm of the opinion that the game would have been better with no skill-cuts, keeping attributes, and a fully fleshed interesting perk system... the latter of which we can thankfully mod into the game)

I'm tired of this perk sensation that seems to have become common practice now.



Damned Call of Duty...

for the lack of skills? bethesda took out 2 crap skills and mysticism which is now in other classes of magic

If it's that bad blame Fallout 1. It's what started the whole "pick a perk every few levels" and made it's way to Fallout 3 now it's full bore on Skyrim lol perk haters are getting pwnd hard.