Ok 1st things 1st Bethesda isn't Bioware and they aren't stupid let's get that out of the way. Now to reply, getting rid of Attributes is a good thing. The Attribute System in Oblivion was broken it was horrible to use. Getting +5 in an attribute shouldn't be a turn off from not playing the game and I shouldn't have to put points into Hand to hand a skill that I shouldn't use just to get +5 Strength.

Perks will replace Attributes with no problems at all. Also under this system we will get more choices then say an Attribute system where everybody ends up at the same place 100 skills, 100 Attributes god but under the Perk System you could still get to 100 skills but you won't have as many perks. The perks are more specialized so if your using Destruction you'll be rewarded with access to perks that'll make Destruction even more powerful. When all is said and done this system will be better because you'll have more choices in developing a character and not be held back by the Attributes which can easily be replaced by perks.

You're stating it rather awkwardly, but yeah, I imagine that a few general perks will probably be available and unlocked either by quests, level, or skill synergy.

I can definitely understand why you feel like you need to make a whole new thread just to reply to an already existing one, because you're afraid that Bethesda won't notice your post in an already existing thread. But I can assure you that you can safely use an already existing thread, because new threads will just be locked and then you're left with the already existing one.

You said a lvl 50 mage and warrior will be the same "except for 50 perks", as if 50 perks weren't a major difference that will proabably offer a bigger game play difference to max level Characters than attributes did.

And about that link, I'm also right again - you cant call a game dumbed down when they've added more than they've taken out, especially when its "class" and attributes that are still accounted for in other facets.

:lol: This I agree with. I'm looking forward to seeing their new way of doing things.

Melting down all attributes into three that aren't even necessarily related is not sensible in any way.

And I am sick of this attitude that you guys treat everyone as a [censored] who doesn't share your opinion that removing attributes is sooo cool and change is always awesome and perks will save everything and make Skyrim the bestest RPG ever. All YOU do is assume, fueled by borderline fanboyism. I am going by what we know so far, displaying the disadvantages of this system and how these could be prevented and all I hear is "shut up, stop complaining you whining idiot!". Blinded as you are you wouldn't realize constructive criticism when it bit you in the rear.
Get over your [censored] selves for christ sake.

:flame:

=dumbed down.

No one told anything about them being OLD. No one objected to adding something cool to the game. But there are people like our friend 'The Terror Of Death' who think that:

Now this is totally NEW. And I was trying to explain the HUGE difference between attributes and perks to these people.
I objected to the removal of attributes, and I explained why.

Probably? You don't even know it, you are just guessing. That's just your speculation. And that's wrong. Those things will not be affected by anything unless a dev confirms it or we read it in an interview.
Please don't post your guesses as facts.

Meeec! Error.

Both you and the [censored] co. are theorizing about impressions of some guys who saw a demo. Neither them nor you (nor me) know almost anything about the new system, so your arguments are as valid as theirs.

- Shut up, whining idiot!
- Who you calling idiot? Shut up, idiot!

See the point?

I have yet to see ideas from those wanting attributes,as to how to keep them or make them more important. As i've said,more proof as been given as to why,they are now in the background or gone as we know them ( meaning numbers ). Those that don't mind that they have gone/or have been put in the background,have in my opinion stated better why,than those who say they should stay.
Can you see no flaws at all in the attributes or are they perfect?

Look in the oblivion manual,compare the attributes,and the skills associated to them,and tell me they all make sense,then compare some of the spells and other exploits,that make some attributes redundant/not needed,with the newer way. Bethesda has done this for a good reason,they have obviously seen a weakness in it to,thats why they've been moved around and are now more subtle/almost invisible .

Can't you see they are trying to make the game more enjoyable,while adding what you really use effects your character more and makes them more unique?
Why should i put blunt up,when i don't want use it just to get + 5 in strength etc. If i have blade in my 7 major's i have to level ten times to get a +5 bonus,which in turn makes me level up. It is/was not a great system,when you think about it.

It's not about ourselves you shallow idiot. I'm talking about people who condemn something they haven't even seen. Hey if it turns out to be crap in a video, then so be it, I'm wrong, but don't say it's personal, and that we can't get over ourselves. That has nothing to do with it. But I'm saying, try before you take a big crap on it. And maybe you only hear "shut up you whining idiot" because you are a whining idiot. Ever think of that, [censored]?

Also, Todd said that they found all the attributes boiled down to the major three. Learn to read and listen.

I made some suggestions in an old thread I think.
How would it hurt you if there were 6 attributes (strength, endurance, intelligence, willpower, agility, personality) instead of the current 3? You lose nothing, but gain a lot of possible builds and different character roles. :shrug:

I don't think anyone here is arguing for the old system with +5/3/2 bonuses and no attribute cap. At least I'm not.

Well, there goes the thread. Nothing but a flame war now. Thanks, guys. :facepalm:

Like I said in my first post:

We don't really know ANYTHING.
We just have to wait and see.

I don't mean to be funny mate,but we are discussing it,that's what the thread is about,other-wise you wouldn't have started it in the first place. No need to call each other,i agree.But we should have a say as to why they have been moved/gone/invisible etc,it's a debate.If done in the right manner,there is no need to close it.

Guesses are essentially opinions. Don't tell me my posts are wrong. Nobody is wrong. Besides the entirety of the forum is speculation. Probably means I think it most likely will be under fatigue. How about you try interpreting the post properly.

Thanks for the hijack? I guess...



Personal insult. Not discussion.



I agree, but still kinda flamey.



Rant against personal attacks becomes a personal attack....



Oh, no. I'm fine with discussion. All for it.
But, yeah. It's the name calling that I don't like.
Debates are debates as long as they keep out the personal attacks. Then it just becomes a shallow name-calling match that doesn't do much good. Kind of like American politics.
I like to see debates conducted in the right manner, for sure. But, some of the above is pushing it...

So, yeah. Discuss...don't flame...

you can say dumbed down, but a lot of the the attributes would just be stupid to have if the perks upgrades them too. Some of the attributes are just redundant if have perks there doing the same thing

Yes such ideas really good and really can be done with mods if will not presented in game if we can change variables and hardcoded functions with scripts.
But what will govern such perks? What skill since all perks will received at skill leveling?
I believe they can be done outside of birthsigns Constellations in appropriate nebula thats represent The Thief, The Warrior, and The Mage.
So they will behind of skills but still tied to character specialization.
Such perks can level by self based on inverse formula of equation thats based on attribute formulas from previous games so it can has 100 levels thats was achieved automatically while leveling of appropriate skills and increasing parameters,
or need investing of perk points thats was achieved trough leveling of skills and will have smaller number of levels but each level will add unique feature or be significant differ from previous one in power and require additional perks or levels in other skills.

Example strength perk: increase weapon damage, decrease speed penalty from equipped armor and weapons, increase speed of equipped heavy weapons in combat, increase shooting distance for throwing weapon or decrease time to draw for long bows, can increase chance of using intimidating in dialogue, can be useful for Lock Bash, can affect probability of stagger and recoil during combat

Example speed perk: increase character speed, increase chance resist stagger and recoil on enemy strike, increase chance make enemy stagger and recoil in combat, increase Sprint speed, allow regeneration of fatigue when running (not sprinting), decrease fatigue usage for sprinting, allow swim faster, allow attack while jumping, suffer less fatigue loss for jumps, can dodge in combat.

Example willpower perk: better magic resistance, allow Magicka regeneration outside of combat, increase Magicka regeneration, allow Magicka regeneration in combat, increase Fatigue regeneration

Example luck perk: probably better loot (leveled containers can has items of higher levels) and percentage of such possibility, during fast travel character can stumble on generated treasure and less encounter hostile enemies, be ambushed during rest, be pickpocket for some amount of gold, catch disease, found an higher leveled item in merchant store, take in account during skill usage randomly increase them, increase amount of pickpocket gold thats player can steal.

Example endurance perk: resistance to weapon damage, increase disease resistance, better poisons resistance, Health regeneration outside of combat, increase Health regeneration, allow Health regeneration in combat, increase Fatigue regeneration, chance resist stagger and recoil on enemy strike

Example personality perk: increased initial disposition with NPCs, add charming options to dialogues, increase speechcraft skill during checks, can work together with class clothes, decrease aggressively of certain enemy groups and types, reduce chances of fails during convincing with speechcraft.

Example agility perk: increase fire rate for bows, increase rate of throwing weapon, decrease time to draw of short bows, decrease probability of trigger traps, increase time for pickpocketing (so we cant see target inventory unlimited time)

Example intelligence perk: decrease spell costs, Intelligence is directly linked to the rate at which you gain new skills, as you gain more Intelligence you will be able to train more times every level, and pay less to do so, allows you to gain more skill points from Skill-Books at higher amounts of Intelligence, can add additional lines to dialogues.

Many of such features already was done in Oblivion with mods, but instead of fixing flaws in attribute system developers remove it completely, while modders fix such flaws, why?

No flames - promise. Because no one is paying attention to the fact that the overwhelming majority of people raising a ruckus are not arguing attributes vs. perks. I contend that perks and skills alone (and don't tell me that health/energy can define someone in any realistic fashion) do not a person define. Perks and skills increasing through the game.. gradually with skills.. a new perk based upon said skills at level-up.. great! I am all for it.. loved it in Fallout.

My problem is the gross cookie-cutter origin prior to gaining those perks. Michael Jordan and Einstein both 18 and attending weapon school are different people/character prior to their learning the skills and perks to come. To reduce those two to (1 has 100 health and 100 energy versus number 2 with 150 health and 50 energy) makes no discernible difference between two individual in lieu of the billions of differences found on earth or thy hundred of thousands of difference if you attempted the quantify two people with abstract numbers based upon agreed to criteria (attributes - or some process that defines them.. somehow.. ) The argument is not attributes versus perks.. it is mindless simplification of where one begins to satisfy the short attention span customer base.

If modder's had truely fixed such flaws,don't you think bethesda would of used it like some of the other mods?

You didn't get it. I will make it easier for you: Even though you have different sets of PERKS, your character will be exactly the same basic character when you don't use the skills. So you are a ranger, you are running in the wilderness, and UNLIKE Oblivion or other TES games which playing as a ranger would be quite different in a similar situation, in Skyrim you will feel no difference. You are as slow as a melee fighter or a mage. Unless you start using one of your skills. Attack, for example.
I'm not sure weight comes into account, but since a mage, a ranger and a fighter have the same value for strength, their carrying capability should be the same either. And so on and so forth etc. etc.

About the link, you didn't get it again. I wasn't referring to your obvious mistake. I was referring to the fact that you have a grim interest in making fun of nearly everyone whom you disagree with, using a very limited vocabulary. Take "face-plam" for an example, which it seems you are too fond of.

That's not correct. They have said that they wanted to give the player more direct control over character development. If this is what they really intended, why would they remove the ability to upgrade completely unrelated things independently?


PeteAtoms, all perks are bound to skills. There are no exceptions. Please read this article:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/04/18/skyrim-skills/


But the perks are not doing the same thing. Perk are not a replacement for attributes. They are completely different. And this is exactly what which I have been trying to point out right from the beginning.
And it wouldn't be stupid if some perks were to upgrade attributes as well, because in all of Fallout games some perks upgrade attributes and they are not stupid. Not at all.

Well thats Daggerfall

Thats Morrowind

Thats is Oblivion

There is some mods thats fixing such flaw like
Willful Resistance
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11237
In Skyrim Willpower was removed as any other attributes, does devs try to fix flaw thats they done in Oblivion?

But Todd says intelligence just "click me for more Magicka" option in game and deserve be removed, does they try to make intelligence more important in game after simplification in Oblivion? No they wasn't, does intelligence was just "click me for more Magicka" option in previous games?
Daggerfall

Morrowind

No it wasn't, since affect more then just Magicka, was thats flaw fixed after Oblivion? No it wasn't, Intelligence attribute was just removed from game.
But there is mod like
Intelligence Overhaul
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11205
Thats fix such flaw in Oblivion
I don't think devs use mods as inspiration the just remove features, like it was with Mysticism (great idea delete one half of spell effects and put another half of them into Restoration and then say something about waste skill).
They remove them to reduce time of game developing.

i agree with you completely.
i swear though, trying to explain the concept of perks and "what is good for the game" to some people is like trying to explain quantum theory to a cat.

Will someone of the opinion that the changes will be better than alternate means please help me understand:

about how the three attributes of health/energy/magic energy are not of a sufficient quality to quantify the differences in 100 individuals of a race with 8 different races at character creation.
"others have demonstrated repeatedly that the removal of attributes in no way causes homogeneity among character builds"

Can someone give me an example where someone has pointed out the possible permutations of differences in starting characters with health/energy/magic energy being the only variables. please?

Again, referencing the OP- I am not arguing against perks-
My problem is the gross cookie-cutter origin prior to gaining those perks. Michael Jordan and Einstein both 18 and attending weapon school are different people/character prior to their learning the skills and perks to come. To reduce those two to (1 has 100 health and 100 energy versus number 2 with 150 health and 50 energy) makes no discernible difference between two individual in lieu of the billions of differences found on earth or thy hundred of thousands of difference if you attempted the quantify two people with abstract numbers based upon agreed to criteria (attributes - or some process that defines them.. somehow.. ) The argument is not attributes versus perks.. it is mindless simplification of character creation/definition the short attention span customer base - to my eyes.

1) Did you link me the wrong article? I picked out anything even remotely relevant, and I don't see anything that says perks are only skill based. (apologies if it is in comments or some other unobvious part of the page besides the actual article).

2) The "constellation based perk picking system." The heck is that? Or is this implying that constellation=skills? Because that isn't obvious to me, and maybe why I never put 2 and 2 together... But it also says they are based on birthsigns. But there aren't as many birthsigns as skills.

In the article it mentions NOTHING about the Perks being tied to Magicka, Stamina, and Health, just the skills, he talked about how attributes are now 3, he brought up oblivion's attributes extensively calling it excel sheety etc etc, if perks had anything to do with Attributes, he would have stated as such. now, if im missing something somewhere, please by all means show me I make no arguments without reasoning and past experience to dictate such.