I know, I know. This is another attributes and perks thread.
A lot of people are saying that what Bethesda is doing with attributes is a mistake.
But, I think the new system sounds much better.

Attributes aren't gone, they're just invisible.
Everything that the attributes did for us, we now can do directly ourselves.
They're still there, governing things, but with their best effects allocated to perks.

Example strength perk: increase weapon damage
Example speed perk: increase character speed
Example willpower perk: better magic resistance
Example luck perk: probably better loot
Example endurance perk: resistance to weapon damage
Example personality perk: increased initial disposition with NPCs
Example agility perk: increase fire rate for bows
Example intelligence perk: decrease spell costs

It's seriously not a huge deal-- at least not in my mind.
I actually like this a lot more.

There's a lot more variety.

But, we don't know everything about the system since we haven't seen it or played it.
It might be bad, it might be amazing. We'll just have to wait and see.

P.S. Don't flame please. Just my opinion. Discuss/play nice...

You are exactly right in your discussion. I've been trying to rebut several naysayers and their doomsday theories of "no attributes means no RPG". I've been using the same type of argument. The game is going to be amazing.

Huh. I wasn't expecting that kind of response as the first reply. Thanks! I'm glad I'm not the only one with a resting heart rate on these forums.

What the OP describes is exactly what I was thinking. But people keep saying there won't be any non-skill perks. So I don't know what skill an encumbrance perk would fall under or a speed perk for that matter.

Perks can't replace attributes because they are bound to skills. They can cover some effects, but it doesn't allow for similar combinations.

Health, Magicka and Stamina are the "real" new attributes. I think that simplifies it too much, because not all old attributes can be represented like this in a sensible way. I don't think it would have hurt the game had it kept at least 6 of the attributes and let us pick 2 with each level up. It would have increased the possible combinations hundredfold while keeping all the benefits of the new system.

This is no "either this or that" issue, attributes and perks would have worked fine together.
IMO.

I very much like this.

Can I get link for the quotes saying perks ONLY fall under skills?

Finally, a thoughtful, intelligent anolysis of what this change really means.

OP has it right.

OP is correct now can we put this petty,simple-minded, i'm scared of change attitude behind us please?

I'm a little weary of trying to make this point, in variously simple and complex ways, so I'll just say that I share this opinion.

I like Skyrim's system, but it could be improved (more powerful, just as elegant).

A good many Fallout perks weren't skill related. I don't see why only skill related perks would be included.
I believe encumbrance would be handled by another strength-related perk, most likely.
And since we know Athletics and Acrobatics have been removed, I bet there are a few perks that take their places, giving increased stamina regeneration and higher jumps. That's about all those skills did anyway, so it just makes sense to simplify them into perks. And we know we can choose perks more than once, so if you have an acrobat wood elf, just choose the jump perk a few times to really make him fly (Heh, you know, like Tarhiel).

I like not being chased with virtual pitchforks... :tes:

Not sure if this is what they will be like - as there are 280 perks and we can only select 50 (more if you want to continue to level)

I am sure each perk will relate to each attribute, in a way, but I think perks will be much more specific than what you are eluding to.

See, that's what I think too. But everyone says that ALL PERKS ARE LINKED TO SKILLS. Making it about 15 or 16 perks per skill...?

Can I get a link from someone that believes/heard this?

Maybe putting points into Magicka will also increase your regen rate, possibly damage? Points into stamina increase stamina, maybe run speed and jump height or sprint duration? HP might increase strength and encumbrance?


It seems like picking one of those 3 will result in multiple effects not just a flat gain on 1 resource pool.

I like these seems fine to me.

They said that most of them are bound to skills, but they're probably not ALL gonna be effin-close related. I mean, they said around 10 perks a skill. 280 in 18 skills... that doesn't give 10

I agree. I mentioned the idea of general non-perk skills like a day and a half ago, but everyone poo-poo'd that idea.

http://www.gameinformer.com:80/games/the_elder_scrolls_v_skyrim/b/xbox360/archive/2011/01/28/skyrim-menu-system-overhaul.aspx

"Every time players rank up their overall level, they can choose a supplemental perk ability for one of the 18 skills."

People that don't like the attribute removal are actually in a minority here. Sometimes I felt I had to argue against the whole forum.




http://bethblog.com/index.php/2011/04/18/new-skyrim-previews-come-in-for-a-landing/
You gain perks by increasing your skills, each skill has 12-20 perks. Some perks require other perks within the tree or a specific skill level before you can get them.

Hm. Now that's interesting. Maybe that's how it will work.

Level health, get increased HP, encumbrance, and weapon damage.
Level magicka, get increased magicka pool, better regeneration, etc.
Level stamina, get increased speed, higher jump height, better regeneration.

Hm...

I've sounded my opinion in another forum, but I thinks it's best if I post here because at least the developers will be aware of my (and many other ES fans') frustration and disappointment.
I am saying this because I am a faithful ES fan since the first game. Recently Dragon Age 2 succeeded at making me very very disappointed. DA series is lost to me and I will never ever buy another BioWare game again. I don't want this to happen to an ES game.
I think the developers' decision not to have the attributes in the game is final, and they won't pay attention to the customers and I think that's a huge mistake, because you'll end up being like BioWare: a once-beloved developer gone hated, because they didn't have the decency to pay attention to what the customers wanted. Money is good and the idea of creating a dumbed-down game which appeals to more fans than you already have seems tempting, but never forget that you can't satisfy everyone, and in the end, you may disappoint and lose the support of the people who have loved and supported you for so long. Removing attributes won't make your fan-base any larger. It will disappoint millions of faithful fans that you already have, as BioWare did with DA2. I hope you won't make their mistake again.

There is nothing wrong with having both attributes and perks in the game. In fact I find it an amazing idea. Removing the attributes is a mistake.
The perks only affect skills. Fundamental attributes of a character (speed of movement, speed of combat, strength and the ability to carry more weight, luck, etc.) are NOT governed by perks.
If you constantly use a skill, you are allowed to pick a perk which enhances that skill (silent run, for example) when you level up. But that perk will affect your character ONLY when you use that skill. If you don't use that skill, you are as good as a character without that perk. You may have 50 perks, but as long as you don't use them; they are non-existent.
Say, you are a level 50 ranger, you are running in the wilderness and you are absolutely no different from a level 50 mage or rogue or warrior with completely different sets of perks.
Attributes (on the other hand) are universal and permanent. They are always there. Most of them have an obvious, ever-present effect on your character (like your speed or your ability to carry wight or find interesting items or random encounters or …) and all of them affect several skills at once. So, while the perks define a skill, attributes define a character. That's what role playing is all about. And that's not available in Skyrim.

==edit
Sorry for posting in the wrong thread, the previous thread was locked thanks to post limit.

Mega FacePalm.

Could you explain better? So a lvl 50 ranger can idle as well as a lvl 50 mage? I would expect any and all characters to be equally good/bad at standing around or walking...

As I see in your previous post:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1181161-its-new-its-different-and-it-frightens-me/page__st__20__p__17499196#entry17499196

It seems you are either a dev disguised as a user, or a total jerk who dreams of being a dev. I think the latter, so uber giga faceplam to you sir. Happy dreaming.


In Oblivion or previous ES games the attributes affect you dramatically. If you have higher 'SPEED' you run faster, so an Agent is much faster than a character who uses magic. A warrior with higher 'STRENGTH' can carry more items than both the Agent and the mage.

More info here:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Attributes

How long is it gonna take everyone to realise that the attributes are still there for christ sake. You all state that you're open to new ideas, and yet you take so bloody long letting go of something. Firstly, the attributes have been bundled into three main things. Secondly, the perks are an ADDITION. It is something NEW. Thirdly, and most prominently, the attributes are still there. They just aren't written down in front of you in a list. Get over it. Things like running jumping and such will still be affected, but will probably come under fatigue instead. Can you not see how this works? Perks are different. They enhance the game with each level, allowing each player to level up differently according to their play style. I'm sick and tired of all these people ranting about it. it's not constructive criticism, it's just stupid. And don't go telling me that people are entitled to their opinion, because this is my opinion. And I think your argument svcks. You're not even making a valid point, and you don't even know how it will work. You're only assuming. Which is unfair on Bethesda.

This isn't a rant at the OP, just at the people who seem to judge the idea before they've even seen it in action. Idiots. Lol.