But, that's you. It's not the OP. You're coming from a different perspective then the OP, having already gone through this yourself(I am pretty sure I've seen you mention that you're *insert term here because I don't know what's politically correct anymore and do not wish to offend*. The OP on the other hand, doesn't have those experiences to draw on. Neither do, and honestly, if my best friend of 25 years suddenly decided he was Transgender, or something along those lines, I'd disown him.

Yes, that's true, they do have a choice to live in the body they were born with or change it. I don't see the struggle to understand the word "choice?"

I never said it was easy, that's why I do believe when they have surgery, they are heavily evaluated psychologically, yes?

And with that choice they make, they have consequences, just like everybody else on this planet who make choices. Are the consequences worth the risk? Obviously in this friends mind, yes, it became worth it. Did they understand they could possibly lose friends over this? Well if they didn't see that as a possibility, then they are very naive.



You aren't a robot, neither is anybody else of my acquaintance. Just because YOU would handle a situation a certain way, does not mean that everybody would, or should. Thank God we have our own minds and choices and free will!

This is a heavy subject, and one not to betaken lightly. There will be people who have very opposing views on it, (obviously) but ultimately, the choice belongs to the OP, because he has to live with himself and his decision.



Well, they are still making that choice to be happy and comfortable with themselves, right? And if people decide they are no longer comfortable in this persons comfort zone, then the peole that choose not to be around them are pretty much doing the same thing that the transgender is doing. Making a choice to be comfortable with themselves.

I'm sure the OP's transgender friend knew she would lose friends after coming out as transgender. My guess is, however, that she never thought she would lose a friend she had known for over 12 years.

Also, yes, people who undergo six reassignment surgery undergo psychological evaluation. But, surprisingly enough (not really), the suicide rate for post-op transgendered people goes down significantly after the operation (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsixual#six_reassignment_therapy).

Indeed.

We don't pick friends with the thought that we will lose them sometime in our lifetime. But it happens. We change, they change, and sometimes the changes are too much for either one to accept. It happens. And in cases like this, I'm pretty sure the person struggled with telling friends beCAUSE they thought they might lose them, but hoping they wouldn't.

OP. You should share your concerns with him. Have you?

It's not like people started jumping on the OP out of nowhere. He started the thread stating that he wanted to be supportive, but was confused and worried about what was going to happen, and was looking for advice. People haven't been attacking him simply for being uncomfortable with it, but the reasons for it that have been given. He's been getting the explanations asked for and thanking people for them, not acting like a victim for being disagreed with. Later responses have been getting testy because his own prejudices (which he admitted to having) seem to be blocking his understanding of what people are saying. The aggressive leaping to the defense of his no-longer-friends option seems unnecessary.

People do of course change over time and friends drift apart, or break apart if something big happens, but that's not what's being disputed. If your spouse cheats on you, you may feel betrayed and break up with them. If you feel betrayed and break up with them because you suspect they cheated on you, and never bother with proof or giving them a chance, you're likely acting too rashly. If this relationship is going to end there's probably little that will stop that, but since it's been stated this is a relationship they want to try and preserve, I should think they at least owe it to the other person not to end it based on suspicions and falsehoods.

Talk about completely changed personality has been bandied about so frequently/casually you would think the OP expects their friend is going to be spirited away in a burlap sack and replaced with a female bodysnatcher or something. That's false, and the kind of thing we've been trying to convince them not to make their decisions based on. Things like "will they still want to hang out and do ___" is not information any of us have access to, and concerns like "am I willing to be seen with them" are things we can certainly argue about the selfish-or-not nature of, but ultimately something he has to deal with himself. We're disputing the things we can as "not as big a deal as he's making it" and whatnot because it's pretty much exactly what the thread is about.

Except that is is a big deal when someone you've know for and been friends with for 12 years drops a bomb on you like this. And it is a bomb regardless of how you look at it. It isn't a new haircut , new career or new wardrobe, it's a GENDER change, for the love of refried beans.

I personally cannot see it that way. I don't mean like when someone completes the world's largest jigsaw puzzle, where I don't really care about the subject matter but at least understand WHY they're excited. I literally do not understand why this would be a big deal at all. And it IS a "bomb" I've had dropped on me. My response was roughly "yeah okay". I asked what name/pronouns would be preferred and that was that. I have concerns about it, for their well-being and the risks involved, but I don't see the source as any more of a big deal than my brother wanting to professionally compete in martial arts matches. I have concerns about that too, particularly of the physical injury variety, but it didn't turn my world upside-down. I'm doing my best to speak to both sides rationally here, but I suppose it's inevitable that some of that is going to be, from my position, trying to calm hysterics over nothing.

I will try to put it another way that may make more sense. We pick and choose(or not choose) people to love (romantically or friendshipwise) that we feel compatible with. If we feel we are no longer compatible with that person, that doesn't mean one or the other is wrong or bad, just that the dynamics of the relationship has changed, we as people have changed, and we find we are no longer compatible. Whatever the reason may or may not be, things have changed, and if one or the other isn't comfortable with the the relationship anymore, and see no way to fix it other than to say goodbye, well, that's just life.

First of all, hairstyle is a matter of choice, whereas mental six is not. Therefore, someone's hairstyle says much more about what kind of person that someone is than his/her mental six does and expecting someone to maintain their physical six when it is in discordance with their mental six just because we have gotten used to them being (fe)male is not only selfish but also incredibly cruel.

Second of all, refried beans are not alive (let alone conscious) and thus are incapable of feeling love.

Arguing over ethics will get you nowhere, guys.

First of all, Changing ones gender physically IS a choice, even if they feel mentally of the opposite gender. Cruel or not, they are still making that choice, with consequences. Just like everybody who makes choices every day.

Second of all, I said FOR the love of refried beans, not FROM. (yes, some people love refried beans, but I'm not one of them. :yuck: )

...you dont like refried beans??? :shakehead:

I know, I'm weird...

Well yes, it is a choice as much as scratching when it itches or drinking when you're thirsty is a choice.



Well... this is silly, but it's not about whether you said "for the love of refried beans" or "from the love of refried beans", it's the "of". "The love of refried beans" means "the love felt by refried beans", whereas "the love towards refried beans" (which, of course, sounds absolutely ridiculous but what can you do) means "the love felt towards (well, obviously) refried beans".

must. you. nitpick! :banghead:

:P

Yes, it is a choice. But who would possibly want to live their entire life feeling and knowing that their physical gender does not match their mental concept of themselves? It would be a life of misery.

Making the choice to come out as transgendered / going through six reassignment is not the same sort of choice one makes when they decide to buy with paper or plastic bags. While they are both choices, the amount of thought that typically goes into them is vastly different, and there is little chance of losing a friend by choosing to use paper bags instead of plastic, and very little to lose. If someone chooses not to come out as transgendered, they will, in all likelihood, have a lower quality of life throughout their life than someone who comes out as transgendered (and goes through six reassignment). May they lose friends? As demonstrated by this thread, yes, it can happen. But, if you had to make the choice for someone else, would you rather they potentially spend the rest of their lives in misery, or go through with the six reassignment surgery?

Yes.



Indeed.

But when you put "for" in front of "the love of refried beans" then it can be either "the love I have for refried breans" or " the love that refried beans feel"

As for being on topic, OP, it sounds to me like you have already made up your mind to disown this friend, and why I think it's a sorry way to loose a friend I cannot judge you, for I have lost friends because of my beliefs as well (and no not religious beliefs, core values type beliefs)

1. Are you his /her friend or not?
2. He's the way he is, and it won't change. You can choose to accept him or not, but that's YOUR problem, not his.
3. you could start by doing some research. Perhaps if you get beyond your ignorance, it might be easier for you to come around.
4. Only you can rise to this challenge or not. It's really your responsibility, and only you will be responsible for dealing with this change.

Later in his life, i found out that my father was Gay. I have to admit that I didn't understand it at the time, but i worked through it, because I loved him, and I didn't want to stop loving him, just because he becme something i didn't understand. So, the bottom line here is how much of a friendship do you have?

Well yeah, I more or less said the same. The point was that the OP had both asked about ways to fix it, and seemed to both want to give it a chance but also sounded ready to end it based on changes that hadn't happened yet and which they didn't know exactly what they would be. Sometimes a relationship will end, yes. But if you can't hang out with someone because of their differing political beliefs, many people are still going to consider it in bad taste if you throw your drink in their face and run the instant the subject comes up, before you've even actually heard their opinion.

Actually, it can't. "The love of refined beans" is a self-sustainable utterance whose meaning does not depend on whether there's a "for" in front of it or not. In fact, all "for" does is make whatever comes after it the object of the sentence, but not in any way modifying its meaning. The fact that someone at some point in time misunderstood "for the love of God" to mean "for the love felt towards God" instead of "for God's love"/"for the love God feels (towards us)" and started using the same template mistakenly thinking it means something it doesn't is irrelevant.

Exactly. I agree wholeheartedly. Which is why they better be damned sure they are 100% sure they want to do the deed, and tell evryone about it. Because regardless of your feelings on the matter, or mine, ultimately the person choosing to do so is taking risks of losing/changing/breaking relationships in the process. If it is worth the risk, then by all means, go for it. They can do what they wish, but they also need to be ready for the consequences of such actions, should they arise. :shrug:





I don't think anybody said anything about throwing any drinks or running away, however if he explains to the friend that it's just too big of a deal for him to handle, then it can be dealt with in a grownup way. Or not, it all depends on the individuals...





For the love for refried beans sounds stupid and I refuse to utter it. I always have and always will say, for the love of refried beans. If anybody has a problem with it, they can stick their fingers in their ears and say "Lalalala."

And it's reFRIED, not refined. :slap:

I have no problem with it, but there's no such thing as "the love of refried beans" and if you have a problem with me pointing that out then you as well may stick fingers in your ears and say "lalalala".



Sorry about that. That's what typing too quickly does to a word you've barely ever used.

edit: As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I haven't even heard of the word "refried" before you mentioned it.

Heeheehee, I don't have a problem with it, I think it's funny when you poke at me.

:whisper: Apparently we didn't fry them right the first time, so had to refry them. :unsure: