It seems to me that what people mean by "dumbing-down" is "removal of micromanaging aspects of gameplay", as in, quantifying character attributes into bloodlessly reductive real integers. Attributes, in other words.

If that's the case, I'm not really inclined to care.

That's all just game mechanics. Archaic mechanics at that, imported from pen-and-grid-paper games without the benefit of quad-core CPUs. In my opinion, managing stat numbers and placing bonemold greaves with an imperial chain cuirass doesn't provide for deep, vivid gameplay. That's just banaustic tedium.

Quickly: Define yourself.

Now, unless you're an android, AI, or just a very boring individual with a background in mathematics, I'm willing to bet that you didn't just list numbers. After all, how do you really quantify intelligence, willpower, or charisma? Even if you could with absolute precision, would that really mean anything to you as a human being? Would you feel happier, more alive, more fulfilled?

That being said, what concerns me is dumbing down in terms of character, setting, conflict. Oblivion was compromised in this regard. Character arcs were largely non-existent. Wacky Imperial China-Rome was rendered as sterile, white-bread Arthurian England. We never got the ideological, war-of-words confrontation between Mankar and Martin that the plot demanded.

In essence, I don't think we should mourn the loss of stat-heavy busy work. Character, writ-large, is far more important.

Hide the health bar and show physical damage or impairments on the character.

Not really. Since there's no proof of what will be taken away, or added. Going by Beth track record and PR jargon, it will most likely give us less than its predecessors. if spell creation and H2H alone dont make it, Sky will be inferior to Ob.

There's been Dumbing Down going on with Skyrim. Fact.

Theres no proof, but just one minute ago



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Again, from interviews, there is tons of stuff added compared to removed.

After all, how do you really quantify intelligence, willpower, or charisma?
I have some good news and some bad news.

The bad news is that your school, your employer, your peers, your government, 1,000s of magazines, advertising agencies, credit agencies ... and possibly even your lover grade your intelligence, willpower, charisma, assertiveness, effectiveness, athleticism, stamina, speed, strength, imagination, physical characteristics, shopping habits, internet usage, T.V. viewing habits, fashion sense, alcohol consumption, hair style, cosmetic use, food preferences... Every single aspect you and your life style is graded somewhere on a scale of A to F, or 0 to 10, or 1 to 100, or dinky, inky stinky, two cs in a k. This is the 21st century, everybody needs to understand ratings and gradings and how they they apply, denying they exist is futile, indeed understanding a simple metric and how it applies to a real world, or game world attribute should be second nature to anyone born in the past 60 years. The good news? I lied, there is none on this matter.

My god, sometimes a feel like we're in the Elder Scrolls right now with all these specters people are arguing against.

-Advocating the implementation of attributes does not mean implementing them in a way identical to those in past games
-Advocating for player distinction at creation does not necessitate a tradeoff between that and character distinction at level 50
-It does not mean we are okay with having every character able to reach level 100 in every attribute
-It does not mean we are okay with having every character able to reach level 100 in every skill
-It does not mean we are fundamentally against the inclusion of perks
-It does not mean we want every character to easily outpace any of the local fauna

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Again, from interviews, there is tons of stuff added compared to removed.

Adding things doesn't always makes things better nor do they make up for the things that were removed.

By your logic, all weapons should do the same damage, rather than reducing those variables to specific numerical values.

Stats break immersion. They're the bare mechanics. I don't see why people hang on to them so fiercely. It's a fine language for a sci-fi world where people speak in numbers. But I don't see the sense of Skyrim's inhabitants describing their sword as being "8" fast and needing "18" repairing. Use the in-game language! Do we really need values as specific as 1-100?

Probably becasue if you dont have stats, you dont have an RPG.

I suppose this is the definition of an RPG that has its roots in dice and character stats on pen and paper?

This kind of assertion is just too dogmatic to even begin to respond to.

Its the definition of a cRPG. Without stats there are no variables, without variables there is no RPG.

Speaking for myself here, I'd prefer weapons which have (for example) swing-speeds defined as "fast", "slow" and all the inbetweens than I would a list of stats. That's a personal preference though. I'm sure it'll make some people angry!

Stats break immersion. They're the bare mechanics. I don't see why people hang on to them so fiercely. It's a fine language for a sci-fi world where people speak in numbers. But I don't see the sense of Skyrim's inhabitants describing their sword as being "8" fast and needing "18" repairing. Use the in-game language! Do we really need values as specific as 1-100?

Variables don't have to be numerical. Inevitably they will be programmed that way, but you don't need to present them that way.

Not really. Since there's no proof of what will be taken away, or added. Going by Beth track record and PR jargon, it will most likely give us less than its predecessors. if spell creation and H2H alone dont make it, Sky will be inferior to Ob.

Inferior to oblivion? I doubt it.we will just have to wait and see.when they said the skill of hand to hand was taken out I felt indifferent I never really cared for it and when joining the forums around 10 monthes ago I found out that there are actually people who play with there fist instead of a weapon.how popular was hand to hand?.

All variables are numerical at their root. Whether its colors, or letters, they are all numbers. If you had a complex game like an ES and you didnt have displayed stats, the first thing everybody would be asking for are the displayed stats back. Stats are made for ease.

Numbers are an easy and precise way of measuring variables. They aren't at the root of anything as far as I can tell. Natural history is much messier than that, surely?
I agree lots of people probably want to keep numbers in their RPGs and would be upset if they were removed. I've just voicing a personal preference.


Keltic Viking: That's exactly how I imagine an ideal RPG myself.

Very popular. The Orc bare fist brawler, the Khajiit Rawlith Khaj master, etc. Its cool if people dont want to use X mechanic,but its no excuse to cut it for the people that did get everything out of the game(s).

The skill is cut out, but I recall in an interview it was said that hand-to-hand would be a viable combat option for the entire game.

Even ME and DiabloIII went the route of more skills/talents and practically took out stat allocation. THEY DO MORE FOR GAMEPLAY - they just do things attributes never could.

RPG's are evolving, deal with it.