Perspectives on Complexity : V - Skyrim

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:54 am

The only "confirmation" Ive heard was a sarcastic post by Hines on Twitter that said to the effect "No, we wont let the player punch things" (implying that there will be at least a way to Punch, whether we can actually build a character around this is unsure). That's all I have heard about it. I was talking more about the endless possibilities of spell creation though. H2H is great for a lot of builds, but SC truly adds depth and opens up a whole new class of abstract characters.

As I understand it, spell creation is still being tossed around.

Something about working out the kinks it had in Oblivion, what with the 80 every element damage plus paralyze for 8 seconds and silence for three minutes.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:09 pm

Pythagoras disagrees.

Define Immersion for me, at least your definition of it, please.

And there's the difference between anthropocentric Ancient Greek philosophers and the rest of us.

What I mean by immersion in this context is a consistent in-game "face". e.g. Not switching from ye olde Nord warrior to modern numerics ye olde Nord warrior would scratch his head at.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:15 pm

As I understand it, spell creation is still being tossed around.

Something about working out the kinks it had in Oblivion, what with the 80 every element damage plus paralyze for 8 seconds and silence for three minutes.

Yeah, Im not saying SC has been confirmed out, its just looking bad and is my personal line in the sand.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:22 pm

Very popular. The Orc bare fist brawler, the Khajiit Rawlith Khaj master, etc. Its cool if people dont want to use X mechanic,but its no excuse to cut it for the people that did get everything out of the game(s).

I told you I wouldn't care if it's in or not if people like it let it be in.now you mentioned orcs bare fist brawling and khajiiths Rawlith khaj master this would be a different story if we were in Elswyr and were ever the hell the orcs are from the devs could add those as one of the main mechanics of the game next to sword spell and stealth.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:38 pm

And there's the difference between anthropocentric Ancient Greek philosophers and the rest of us.

What I mean by immersion in this context is a consistent in-game "face". e.g. Not switching from ye olde Nord warrior to modern numerics ye olde Nord warrior would scratch his head at.

All moderns scientist, mathematicians and physicist (at least the ones that matter) agree with Pythagoras.

There will never be a 1:1 scale RPG, and your Nord isn't aware of his numerical representations, unless he himself is measuring his and his contemporaries percentiles. Which is to say stats dont break immersion.

now you mentioned orcs bare fist brawling and khajiiths Rawlith khaj master this would be a different story if we were in Elswyr and were ever the hell the orcs are from the devs could add those as one of the main mechanics of the game next to sword spell and stealth.

Its the same story. the game shouldnt limit mechanics based on where it takes place. Not like fisticuffs are exclusive to any region anyways.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:28 pm

For me 'dumbing down' is not so much the numbers, but the options. For instance, buying a premade fireball spell that is permanently affixed with preset damage. If you want to kill something with it... you cast it. If the thing didn't die... you cast it again... and again. When a previous incarnation of the game allowed you to create your own fireball spell that did X damage upon impact, then you could tweak it to ignite the creature on fire. Maybe I could have added the option to paralyze the enemy within that spell at the cost of more mana... or maybe some lifeforce.

Nope... all those OPTIONS removed. You now must live with a plain jane fireball spell. That to me is what I consider 'dumbing down'. When a game has to be simplified because some people can't be expected to take the time to actually LEARN the system to get the most possible effect.

In the gameworld, people have to spend their whole lives in guilds and universities to learn how to cast the powerful of spells.... However, the "player" character only has the option of the most simplistic version of magic. That is 'dumbing down'. The removal of options and complexity of processes to make it a more simplified and QUICK way of doing things for certain players.

When was it confirmed that you couldn't create spells? And also doesn't leveling up your destruction skill increase the damage of fireball spells? So theoretically wouldn't deciding to level up your destruction skill be like deciding how much damage your spell does?

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:59 pm

Again Im wondering what is going on the minds of NO NUMBERS! Folk when they make such statements, and what they actually expect a game to do.

Your character is strong.

its now stronger

its now stronger than Strong is strong.

:confused:

ITS A GAME the hell what do you expect to freewheel it in the game? there are still levels, quantitative Stats of health/Stamina/Magick how much weapons deal in damage, how many skill levels you need to pass for Perks. PERK RANKS..........Perks at add Percentages, like really 25% block increase? people come the ***k on and stop that garbage please....

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:35 pm

Again Im wondering what is going on the minds of NO NUMBERS! Folk when they make such statements, and what they actually expect a game to do.

Your character is strong.

its now stronger

its now stronger than Strong is strong.

:confused:

ITS A GAME the hell what do you expect to freewheel it in the game? there are still levels, quantitative Stats of health/Stamina/Magick how much weapons deal in damage, how many skill levels you need to pass for Perks. PERK RANKS..........Perks at add Percentages, like really 25% block increase? people come the ***k on and stop that garbage please....

I believe they want an action game, or at least a linear GTA type experience. Take an RPG that had no displayed weight stat, or encumbrance. You'd have to suit there for twenty minutes dropping and picking up to find out why and how your over encumbered.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:12 pm

All moderns scientist, mathematicians and physicist (at least the ones that matter) agree with Pythagoras.

There will never be a 1:1 scale RPG, and your Nord isn't aware of his numerical representations, unless he himself is measuring his and his contemporaries percentiles. Which is to say stats dont break immersion.

Being a svcker for immersion, I'd obviously prefer it if my Nord's abilities were represented in a way he was aware. Say a journal where his blade skill is recorded as "proficient", "deadly" or any other value. And then NPCs could ask me, "How good are you with a blade?" and I'd not be inclined to reply "86 good with a blade, that's how good".

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:57 am

100% agreed. RPGs are evolving. The hardcoe RPG enthusiasts that play DND will be dissapointed, everyone else will get yet another Game of The Year contender. (as well as RPG of the Year)

Thing is, the real hard core, the niche within the niche, doesn't play D&D. It plays games that break all the 'rules' whose disregard so upsets the D&Ders. D&D is basically the Windows of pen & paper RPGs, in many ways, and these discussions would be a lot more productive if we stopped accepting it as a template for RPGs in general.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:26 pm

Being a svcker for immersion, I'd obviously prefer it if my Nord's abilities were represented in a way he was aware. Say a journal where his blade skill is recorded as "proficient", "deadly" or any other value. And then NPCs could ask me, "How good are you with a blade?" and I'd not be inclined to reply "86 good with a blade, that's how good".

You had that in OB, it was called Novice, Apprentice, Expert etc. If your 86 in blade, then your in a certain percentile, thats not hard to understand.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:00 am

Speaking for myself here, I'd prefer weapons which have (for example) swing-speeds defined as "fast", "slow" and all the inbetweens than I would a list of stats. That's a personal preference though. I'm sure it'll make some people angry!

Stats break immersion. They're the bare mechanics. I don't see why people hang on to them so fiercely. It's a fine language for a sci-fi world where people speak in numbers. But I don't see the sense of Skyrim's inhabitants describing their sword as being "8" fast and needing "18" repairing. Use the in-game language! Do we really need values as specific as 1-100?

This is just another of the multitudinous diversions that seem to crop up whenever this subject comes up.

The "choice," such as it is (which is completely out of our hands) is not between whether the numbers will be shown or not, but whether the numbers, and more to the point the very real things that they represent, will even EXIST or not.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:14 pm

You had that in OB, it was called Novice, Apprentice, Expert etc. If your 86 in blade, then your in a certain percentile, thats not hard to understand.

You clearly think modern mathematics works well in RPGs, I don't. Doesn't get any easier to understand that that. I think we've exhausted this conversation.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:09 am

You clearly think modern mathematics works well in RPGs, I don't. Doesn't get any easier to understand that that. I think we've exhausted this conversation.

I think that if people cant understand simple numerical representations, key word representations, then maybe RPGs are not for them. And I think most everybody thinks modern math works great in RPGs, probably why there has never been a cRPG that didnt have stats.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:09 pm

You clearly think modern mathematics works well in RPGs, I don't. Doesn't get any easier to understand that that. I think we've exhausted this conversation.

I'm curious - if the game were to provide you with the words to describe your proficiency in a particular skill (a thing to which I'm not in the least opposed), how would the game know when to swap one descriptor for another? How could it possibly track your progress and determine that you had qualified for the next descriptor if not by assigning a numerical value to that skill?

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:39 am

I'm curious - if the game were to provide you with the words to describe your proficiency in a particular skill (a thing to which I'm not in the least opposed), how would the game know when to swap one descriptor for another? How could it possibly track your progress and determine that you had qualified for the next descriptor if not by assigning a numerical value to that skill?

I'm talking about presentation, not programming. So of course the game would still work out your overall ability as a number, it just wouldn't tell you that number. It would replace it with a word.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:18 pm

A good story > a quantitative representation of some various personal attribute.

And I'll happily sacrifice that quantitative representation if it means bethsda has more resources to give me a more believable game world.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:19 pm

I'm talking about presentation, not programming. So of course the game would still work out your overall ability as a number, it just wouldn't tell you that number. It would replace it with a word.

Then, again, that's beside the point, since the issue at hand here is not whether or not to SHOW the numbers that represent things like attributes, but whether or not those numbers, and those attributes, should exist AT ALL. Beth has decreed that they should not. The OP apparently agrees that they should not. Some number of us believe that they should.

The issue of whether they should be shown or not is entirely separate, although that distinction is often lost in these threads.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:54 pm

Your strong

Congrats now your Stronger.

You know at first I see, I don't want to have to look at/ I don't see why people need numbers to tell them how their characters are. and then I ask...ok so how do you know your progressing? and in retrospect to not wanting to look at stats, I guess many people forgot how you'd get a little paragraph or so about your charater getting stronger. how about you just pay attention to that?

D&D is of what TES coalesed itself from and determined its own form. now body is asking for 20 sided Die.......

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:30 am

Then, again, that's beside the point, since the issue at hand here is not whether or not to SHOW the numbers that represent things like attributes, but whether or not those numbers, and those attributes, should exist AT ALL. Beth has decreed that they should not. The OP apparently agrees that they should not. Some number of us believe that they should.

The issue of whether they should be shown or not is entirely separate, although that distinction is often lost in these threads.

I agree and I got that much from your post a little earlier. My view is that perks are an improvement over a stat system. I did mention that earlier, but went off on a seperate tangent. Ideally though, I'd like to see different proficiency levels (text-based "stats") and perks combined.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:23 pm

A good story > a quantitative representation of some various personal attribute.

And I'll happily sacrifice that quantitative representation if it means bethsda has more resources to give me a more believable game world.

I'd much rather play good game with a crap story than a bad one with good story.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:42 am

In essence, I don't think we should mourn the loss of stat-heavy busy work. Character, writ-large, is far more important.

My concern is that if the ending is some utterly cliché'd tripe like transforming into a dragon to fight Alduin, my impressions of the writing aren't going to be very favorable. :spotted owl:

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:38 pm

I think this is a good time to add that I don't think the OP was saying anything about numbers per se. The point is that all those statistics are arbitrary; that there is no good reason numerical attributes should be there if a better mechanic exists. This is not to say (though it might imply) that attributes are an inferior mechanic, or even that games should not contain numbers- these are very different arguments. Some posters, in this thread and elsewhere, seem to feel that their characters will not be 'whole' without a set of numberical attributes, and the OP was addressing this.

I might add that the responses above regarding the the obsessive drive to quantify people in the 'real world' prove nothing except that such a drive exists, which anyone who reads these boards already knows.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:37 pm

It goes the other way too.

Actually, no it doesn't. You can add as many things as you want, if you remove the core you have ruined the experience.

If you remove the core, you still have ruined the experience and no amount of things you add will replace it.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:56 pm

100 numerals>100 words. Especially since you probably wont remember what every word represents, opposed to easily knowing 55 is superior to 50. people that want these "words" are actually wanting another, redundant layer. That's complexity for complexities sake.