Ofcourse you need character skill, I completely agree with that, but I think you need a little bit more than that. Not just clicking a button and *pingg!* the lock opens due to your lockpicking skill or something being 100. The higher the skill of your character, the less skill involved for you personally to open the lock.

Yeah. The character skill is what is supposed to represent the skill/experience/knowledge a real person would require to pick a real lock.

Some "skill" concering the ability to pick the lock with your controller/keyboard is supposed to represent some natural dexterity a real person could have with his hands/fingers.

Both should matter.

still no difference between frostfall and morning star :nope: oh well maybe next game wait does the black marsh have seasons? :shifty:

As a character in the game I might be very good at lock picking. Why should my inability with a controller, or my ability, influence how good my character in the game is? Outside influence in an RPG breaks the immersion factor and either makes your in game character better, or worse, depending on your skill with the controller.

It's really a moot point since it seems that the lock picking game will be just as broken in Skyrim as it was in Oblivion, unless the dev team find a way to make it rely more on character skill.

It always will, unless you're playing the game with your mind.

Look at games like counter strike and such. How good you can handle mouse & keyboard is all that matters there.

Lockpicking should be something that somewhat relies both on real life skill and in-game skill.

[quote name='Huleed' timestamp='1303571511' post='17526068']
It's really very simple you just spam the auto-attempt button. It's more-or-less only based on your character skills, then.


Which is exactly what I do. However, it sounds like there won't be any such option in Skyrim.

Counter Strike is an FPS, that should rely soley on your skills with a controller/keyboard & mouse. It has no RPG mechanics in it.

That is why I have a problem with the lock picking minigame. RPG's are designed for character skill and that is what should count. You could implement the same lock picking mini game in any FPS and it would be no difference. That's not how it should be.

The lockpicking mini game in Splinter Cell is just the same as it was in Oblivion, the mechanics were different but both relied on your ability and none on your character skill.

I want an RPG where character skill rules. If it doesn't than you might as well remove the "R" from RPG.

But RPG means Role Playing Game. You're taking the role of your created character, and you try to be him, not let him do all the work, otherwise it's may as well watch cutscenes the whole time.
And also, character skill only rules if you put the effort into it yourself, so either way, it all relies on both player and character skill.

Well, why should your ability affect how successful _your character_ is in combat? Yet it does, doesn't it? It always did. Would people enjoy TES if combat was based _just_ on character skills and a dice roll? I doubt it.

I was a big fan of Daggerfall and Morrowind, actually, but it doesn't change the fact that all the skills that were based just on character skills and dice rolls, without any active participation of the player, were deadly boring and immersion-breaking.

I agree that Oblivion lock-picking game was stupid, but Fallout 3 did it much better, like it also improves on Stealth (which was already improved in Obl from previous entries). And BTW, you couldn't open a 100% lock with a 5% skill in F3 either. I hope that they do something with pick-pocketing too rather than make it a blind gamble re-load fest. At least give us some clue how difficult a given "mark" is likely to be, for Pete's sake!

Traps are going to be active enough, probably, since you'd have to spot them first and thus pay attention to your surroundings.

No matter if it's an RPG or FPS or whatever you're never going to get away from the fact that you require some "skill" to play a game. If you svck at aiming you'll svck at shooting spells and bows in Skyrim (well kind of, apparently there is some magnetism thing that might help subtly).
If you svck at timing you'll definitely svck at combat in Skyrim. If your IQ is like 90-100 then that's also going to matter when you're trying to solve the puzzles in Skyrim.

We play the games with our hands and keyboard/mouse/controller, so of course that's going to matter in places where a finess is required. However, character skill should matter more for lockpicking than in Oblivion. You shouldn't be able to lockpick a very hard lock when you're level 2.

Locks should be harder to open in general imo. And very hard locks should be much rarer, and when they're actually there, they should have something nice and valuable inside of them, like in Morrowind.
But there should also be more focus on different ways of opening locks. More powerful lock-spells, like in Morrowind, would be nice. A bash-ability would also be nice, if you're really strong.

As I said, Oblivion's combat was superior. However, it also still decided solely on your character skill and the item of use. The only difference is that you actually hit what you were swining at, while doing so your character skill and the quality of the weapon was the determing factor in damage you did. That is the way it should work in all RPG's, character skill and item of use being the deciding factor.

I'm not saying the whole game needs to be a dice role, but when it comes to lock picking you should NEVER be able to open a high quality lock with only 25 lock picking skill. You could do that in Oblivion.

If everyone wants a mini game, they should at least make it so that your character skill determines what you can open. If you don't than you make it so that your lock picking skill is useless, like in Oblivion, and upgrading it would be a waste of points.

Like i said, the higher the character skill, the less player skill involved

It's a very fine balancing act. On one end, you have the scenerio of being 1 skill point away from accomplishing some task (eg, have a security skill of 29 and always fail with a lock, and at level 30 you always succeed) which is just frustrating... and on the other, you run the risk of good players always being able to succeed regardless of the character. Finding the sweet-spot in the middle of these two extremes is a daunting task... made more difficult by the fact that different people will have different sweet-spots, and some people's sweet-spots may change (eg, when I first started Oblivion, I thought the lock pick minigame worked very well at preventing me, as a low-level char, from opening hard locks; but as I continued playing, I as a player got better at lock-picking, and my char skills became less relevant).

Not true at all. You still have to hit what you aim at for character skills to come into play. I had problems hitting things with bows and ranged spells and it didn't matter a whit that my character's skills were high. I also wasn't so great at the block/side-step/strong attack patterns, which were quite important for melee combat. Yet even so I'd say that combat in Obl was much more entertaining than in MW without mods. And ability to "slow time" might actually allow me to finally enjoy combat to it's fullest.
Not to mention that choosing various tactics, spells, abilities, etc. is also all player-based. Even in a turn-based game a low-int character can be a master tactician.




You could also do it in MW if you had enough lockpicks or were patient enough to re-load ad-infinitum, IIRC. Or you could just use a spell or an enchanted item. But I agree with you there - which is why I like FO3 system so much.



To be fair, it was always a useless skill in TES, since School of Mysticism (?) provided an Open spell and a lot of other nifty spells besides. I hope that only average locks can be opened with a spell this time around. Everybody and their dog can use magic in TES world - it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't take spells into account when constructing secure locks.

Alteration (': x

But since it's been confirmed that most creatures won't attack you on sight (Unless you're in a dungeon) Then you won't be hearing that battle music as often, unless YOU attack the creature.

That seems okay by me.

Unfortunate, I'd really of liked to see the seasons change.

" It can also be annoying if there are lots of encounters like in Oblivion (mudcrabs and wolves everywhere...)."
That was just one of my reasons for not liking battle music...
I still don't like it for the other reasons :/

No. Ever been to Alaska? Utterly beautiful during summer. A snowball in winter. Fresh sprouts and thaws create new rivers and streams in spring. The entire forest changes color in fall.

But I completely believe seasons should not go in. It'd really svck if all you saw was snow for months. Also, no character saves last more than a few months.

Will Bethesda also make sure the manual has rounded corners so we won't get paper cuts when we try and read it? I can understand some of the reasoning behind removing birthsigns but presenting this as the reason patronises us as well as making the reporter who wrote it look stupid. Your birthsign could never be a game ruining decision. The writer on the MTV blog might think that their readers and other people who play The Elder Scrolls games are stupid petulant children but I tend to give them a bit more credit, yes even the much maligned console gamers.



Make them even more useful at later levels, choose one that proves less useful for your play style than you originally thought, and then Wah! Wah! I wish they had never included this. Um, sure.

Even assuming that the 'game ruining decision (oh no I ended up with a greater power that gives me invisibility once a day instead of an extra 10 points of speed curse you pharaoh!)' wasn't made up by that writer, did you ever think that it might like, just be kinda possible that Bethesda could have developed the birthsigns so that no matter what you chose you would end up with a useful power/spell/boost to stats or whatever and none of them could be considered 'game ruining'. Just a thought you know. I'm not sure of the reasoning behind Bethesda decision to cut it but I'm fairly certain the sentence "We worked out a way to increase the power and usefulness of birthsigns, but it means that people can screw up their characters if they pick wrong one" was not said in the meeting where they decided to cut them.



If I was a first time player and picked Atronach and was confused why magic wasn't working like it should I would probably make the minor mental jump that the ability 'stunted magicka' might just kinda have something to do with it. I think I give people more credit than you are prepared to. Yes, I'm fairly certain that even first time players on the console would be capable of working out that 'stunted magicka' has something to do with the fact that your magicka isn't regenerating. Then there is also that description in the box that outright says that it prevents the player from regenerating magicka. People who play games on consoles do know how to read you know



There is a large and well serviced genre called the action rpg genre where you can find all the lack of skill rolls and 'strategic choices for character development' that your heart desires. For those of us who prefer real RPGs, you know the ones that aren't part of the Diablo series, we like to have a larger emphasis upon the skill of our avatar. There are a heck of a lot less true RPGs than action rpgs available, so it isn't like we are trying to deprive you of one of your two or three releases a year from your chosen genre. I hear Dragon Age 2 might be right up your alley.



It seems you fundamentally misunderstand what an RPG is. In an RPG you control an avatar in the game world. While you as a person makes deicisons about what your avatar does and how your avatar grows it is entirely up to the growth in skills that you have chosen for your avatar that affects how they do what you choose for them to do. It's possible for you to make a case that for combat some degree in how well you as a player can press the buttons left and right and keep something centred on your screen (not difficult things even for small children) is important, but for non-combat tasks like lockpicking there is no requirement for any player skill to be involved at all. If you want player skill to be the prime determinant of your game then I suggest you go play FPS games or action rpgs like that other fellow. You really should also make the effort to understand the fundamental characteristics of an RPG. There are some sites on the web that discuss this issue indepth. You should search them out.



That's one of the more ridiculous statements I've heard. The very idea that a player can compensate for their avatar's deficiencies goes against everthing that these games represent. You can only cast open lock spells if your alteration is at the high enough level, it doesn't matter how skillfully you point the crosshairs at the container. So if you can't compensate for low skills in magic why should you be able to compensate for low skills in lockpicking or whatever other minigame?



Exactly. You make the decisions and your avatar carries them out. If you've got no clue about how to fight that group of enemies then it doesn't matter what your avatar does, they'll just stand around unless you make a decision. That's whem the player skill comes into play. It's your deicions, your ROLE PLAYING, that affect your success. If you choose to try and open that locked box you might find a rare gem or powerful dagger inside that will affect your future encounters. But if you choose not to try and open the box you would never get them. You avatar's skill comes into play when you actually try and open the box.

In summary

Player skill
----------------
Choosing what actions to take and what decisions to make

Character skill
--------------------
Whether and by how much those actions will be successful and whether the decision goes ahead as intended.

I'll just clear up the difference betwen combat and lockpicking since that is most likely what you'll try and use to say no no no. For Oblivion and Skyrim Bethesda has decided to make it a 100% to hit chance since people dislike the visual aspect of seeing a weapon hit something and do no damage. Instead the character skill affects damage instead of to hit chance. You chose to swing the sword in a certain direction and facing a certain way. Your character's skill determines how much damage the strike will do. Similarly you choose to cast the spell in a certain direction. Your character's skill will determine how powerful it can be and how many times you can do it. For lock picking you choose to pick the lock. Your character's skill affects whether the lock is picked or not. Get it? Moving around in combat is a player skill because it is a decision that you make. It is only when you connect a hit with the enemy that the character's skill comes into play. Similarly when the lock is being picked (aka getting hit) the character's skill is the thing that is used.

Let me know if you still can't make the cognitive jump to understand that.

It seems you fundamentally misunderstand the concept of a console/computer and a video game and it seems you totally miss out on big parts of a discussion.

"No matter if it's an RPG or FPS or whatever you're never going to get away from the fact that you require some "skill" to play a game. If you svck at aiming you'll svck at shooting spells and bows in Skyrim (well kind of, apparently there is some magnetism thing that might help subtly).
If you svck at timing you'll definitely svck at combat in Skyrim. If your IQ is like 90-100 then that's also going to matter when you're trying to solve the puzzles in Skyrim.

We play the games with our hands and keyboard/mouse/controller, so of course that's going to matter in places where a finess is required. However, character skill should matter more for lockpicking than in Oblivion. You shouldn't be able to lockpick a very hard lock when you're level 2.

Locks should be harder to open in general imo. And very hard locks should be much rarer, and when they're actually there, they should have something nice and valuable inside of them, like in Morrowind.
But there should also be more focus on different ways of opening locks. More powerful lock-spells, like in Morrowind, would be nice. A bash-ability would also be nice, if you're really strong."

You should really try reading other peoples' comments a bit better next time. And try thinking outside the FPS-RPG box and instead of what you actually do when you play a game.

Birth signs dealt a lot with the skills. A couple affected magicka or granted one shot spell effects so they really would have needed to be changed. Just as easy to dump them too.

It's a sad thing but there's only so much room on a DVD. If we are to get more content, something has to go. I sure hope that the stuff replacing the things we are losing is worth it.

I also hope the random dragons doesn't take some of the fun out of playing without following the main quest. Might get old running into a dragon or two every couple of days.

hi hlvr,



Nice attempt at turning my words against me but if you don't follow it up with an explanation it loses its luster. Why exactly do I misunderstand the concept of a computer game? What part of my explanation of the differences between player decisions and the character's success at attempting those decisions makes you think I misunderstand the concept of a computer game? Do tell.



That's great. We're in agreement about how we would like the system to be addressed in Skyrim. Many of these changes were introduced for Fallout New Vegas. Hopefully Bethesda has learnt something when they subcontracted it out to Obsidian.



It's like almost 4.30am so I was just copying the quotes I found particularly objectionable and sticking them into a notepad document before copy and pasting then into a forum post. I wasn't even looking at who wrote what. Also when they start making strategy games in a first person perspective with crosshairs then I'll start to consider them in the context of FPS and RPG. Until then those two games are a very similar style of play apart from the design decisions and mechanics, at a level that strategy, simulation, and racing games can't approach.



The birthsign records would account for less than 5 kilobytes worth of space. I'll be adding them all back in my game through a self-created mod that'll take all of half an hour to cook up.

Pokemon Black/White

It was actually said in my comment. You should read it once again. And perhaps some other comments in this thread.
But at some point, relevancy should take a stand. Get back on track on discussing the features of the articles, or we're going to end up somewhere far away that's just pointless other than for the sake of arguing. It's one thing discussing something completely irrelevant (the concept of an RPG...?), and another thing relating the discussion to the questions in mind.


I wish Skyrim would have seasons. They could have bragged about it, couldn't they?
It's not that far away after having dynamic snow.