Pessimistic or Optimistic? : V - Skyrim

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:11 am

If you are roleplaying, you don't realy need a class to define you, it's your job to define yourself, the only limitations is your imagination :thumbsup:

I'm talking about initial character build . . . NOT just class, and NOT just a label.

Initial character builds in Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion (and even in Fallout 3) included inherent strengths and weaknesses . . . that actually altered the abilities of your character (not just how you defined your character in your head).

» Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:13 pm

i LOVE how the game looks and am very excited about it. although, i still don't like the general path bethesda is taking, and without more gameplay footage i feel like i can't draw conclusions. but it's an elder scrolls game, so that means i will be at the midnight release (if there is one) and taking a 4-5 day weekend for it.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:02 am

I'm talking about initial character build . . . NOT just class, and NOT just a label.

Initial character builds in Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion (and even in Fallout 3) included inherent strengths and weaknesses . . . that actually altered the abilities of your character (not just how you defined your character in your head).

Ah, I see

the only thing I can think of concerning the inherent strength and weakness would be the racials. But supporting your concern, I don't see the racials supporting an orc mage for instance. We'll see how beth deals with this.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:52 am

As a pc gamer, and after being repeatably defecated on i'm always pessimistic no matter what.

Take tribes ascend at first i was happy; then guess what no ability to do custom scripts, no dedicated servers, small maps, can only carry 2 weapons.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:28 am

Im sure it will have its faults like any other game, but Im sure I will love it.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:59 am

But in real life we don't all start out the same . . . every person has inherent strengths and weaknesses. And Skyrim leaves that out. In real life, not every person is naturally gifted in music, or in athletic abilities . . . we all have unique differences, even from a very early age. Plus, as I'm personally all too aware of, there are birth defects and injuries that can result in disabilities (which each come with their own strengths and weaknesses).

In the beginning of the game, your character is an advlt (like 20 years old or more) . . . so they would have 20 years worth of experience . . . presumingly 20 unique years of experience . . . so they should have some learned skills, along with innate abilities (they should be better than average at some things and worse than average at other things). Todd stated that an average game might last 200 real hours, during which you might level up 50 times (and gain 50 Perks). 200 real hours = 250 game days (based on a 30 Timescale) . . . which is less than 9 months. So my 20-year-old starting character would have no skills, no education, nothing they are good (or bad) at . . . yet during the 9 months of game time that I'm playing the game, they will suddenly be able to excel at any skill that they use. I'm having a LOT of trouble wrapping my brain around that kind of logic.

And if you run out of arrows and pick up a sword, you'll soon become just as good with a sword . . . even if I wanted my character to be naturally better with a bow. I cannot create a character with any inherent abilities (along with opposing inherent weaknesses). In real life, every person who picks up a basketball and practices shooting baskets does not become a basketball star.

We've already tried this out . . . it was part of Oblivion's Tutorial . . . and it didn't work very well (most players didn't keep the class that their game play resulted in).

I'm only going to touch on one point as I'm getting weary near my bedtime. In Morrowind and in Oblivion my first character was a pure Mage. Both times I refused to wear any armor, use any weapons, and to always seek a diplomatic way to resolve quests. Both times I never once wore armor and never once used normal weapons. My character survived and did indeed turn out to be a mage and a very good one. I will however say that Morrowind did a better job of offering more diplomatic solutions to quests though neither one was very good about that.

I have also played a thief that used a bow almost exclusively. I did use a sword if I had no bow. But I made sure to keep a bow or two at all times and plenty of arrows with me. I made sure when I was in a city to have my weapons repaired or repair them myself. I wore only light armor and never even tried to wear heavy armor with this type of character and would never try to use an axe or a hammer. Those were not my characters specialties. I never wanted my character to be a jack of all trades.

As to the inherent strengths and weaknesses, those are present in races traits. As to everyone starting the same, yes...sort of like every 20 year old that has spent the last 10 years (half his life) in prison eating gruel and pacing in a cell back and forth. :shrug:

Really, I am not bothered by us all starting the same. We all started the same before we started marking those bullets in the menus at the start. Now I select my birthstone as I go and my perks as well. I would imagine we will find some birthstones fairly early in the game so that we will all be a bit different in addition to racial and gender differences soon enough in the game. Anything that ends up giving me more choices, I like.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:26 am

Pessimistic. I have no doubts Skyrim will be a good game, based largely on my experiences with Oblivion though, I question whether I'll enjoy playing it.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:06 am

I hate the changes

I hate that so many people seem to love the changes

I hate that every RPG that has come out in the last 5 years has to be DUMBED DOWN so that they can win over some new customers

Cut this and that and this over here, and maybe we can score a few COD players and get some of that cash

But what about our old players

To heck with them, we already got their money

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:50 am

It makes perfect sense and is mostly what I was trying to convey.

I always make decisions about my character prior to starting the game. I decide some basic rules for my character to follow. I build her/him in my head prior to creating him/her. I decide what weapon I want to use most and what one I would like to use as an alternate. I decide what race I will be then my weapon choices and armor type choices and if I will focus on being a thief or not. If I choose a thief I will more than likely want to be a Wood Elf for they are known to be good sneaks. Then along the way I will find birthstones and have a choice of three. If one will increase my sneak or bow (they are good marksman) or whatever the choices are, I need to really think about what choice I make. When I level up and get to choose a perk I need to carefully think through that choice and how it will effect my character build. To me it sounds much more challenging. We just won't know our complete birth sign until the end. At least that is how I pictured it in that 14 min. demo Todd did. I hope it's something like that because I find it exciting.

I think most reasonable 'old-school' RPG ~~pessimists~~ skeptics won't dispute this part of the argument. The new system has some promising mechanics to better define your character's class/profession in the latter part of the game.

But what about at the beginning? What truly differentiates an Orsimer fighter from a Breton spellcaster from a Bosmer rogue in the beginning? In the previous system(s), you had inherit strengths and weaknesses derived from race, class and birthsign, and could assign a number of skill and attribute points to further distinguish those capabilities with the justification that you had a background in performing these tasks regularly (whether by profession, upbringing, education, etc.). In essence, these stat boosts represented your character's past and natural inclination towards a particular profession (or class). From what I've heard and seen of the new system, there is no mechanic to use to create a back-story for your character. No race is particularly inclined to be better at something than any other race because they have no discernible talents or weaknesses. At least, not in any way that the player has any control over.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:40 am

Perks provide a way to further define a character in the late game. (though it wasn't hard not to create Generic God Character #13241324 in the previous system) But the problem is that they removed most of the players ability to define a character in the beginning.

The middle of that, the actual meat of the game, is irrelevant. Because no matter what, we all play in the playstyle we have chosen, whether its with just the class system or just with the perk system. If we want to change out of this, then most likely we will end up having to start over anyway regardless of what system is used unless you decide to change literally less than 2 levels in, because otherwise you basically just wasted a piss load of time.

» Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:40 pm

I don't nit pick minor details, nor do I expect perfection from anything so, what I have seen so far is pretty fantastic, I am sure that the game is going to be great.

I hate the changes

I hate that so many people seem to love the changes

I hate how people expect to simply replicate their previous titles. If you hate change so much, why not simply play Morrowind for an eternity?

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:03 am

there's tons of features i'm not happy about. greaves and cuirass being combined, no mysticism, acrobatics/athletics, spellmaking, levitation, the attributes. having said that, i believe i'll forget about all of that, and skyrim will stand out on it's own as a solid game.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:18 am

I hate how people expect to simply replicate their previous titles. If you hate change so much, why not simply play Morrowind for an eternity?

Not a matter of replication so much as not removing what wasn't broken. Not a matter of change so much as it is the systematic destruction of an incredibly useful school of magic.

» Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:48 pm

I have two worries, 1. Chest/pants merge. 2. no werewolves.

Im pretty optimistic

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:15 am

I don't like:

Possible merging of cuirass and greaves (like I said possible not yet confrmed)
Physics of the giant being dropped
Possible poor AI (I'm thinking of the stealth kill in the gameplay trailer)
Fast travel remains
No attributes
No Character class

Please allow me to object to these objections:

1. Having one piece armour (top and bottom) was no problem for Fallout 3. I and many others modded that stuff anyway. I even had nose rings in FO3.

2. The physics of the giant is nit picking, you can actually see him hunch up as he flies through the air. That did not break the immersion for me.

3. When the arrow hits the first robber in the barrow, the second one did react. You can also see the eye recticle indicate that he was "searching" but had not yet detected you.

4. Fast travel is a great thing. I used it all the time in Fallout 3. And you always have a choice.

5. I am very much in favour of minimal character choices at the start of the game. Attributes are now thought to have a flow on effect from the skills you level up. And since skills level up as you use them, this makes good sense. The whole Oblivion way of doing it was back to front.

6. You do have character class. Instead of picking it by some artificial locked-in formula at the start, you essentially create your own. As a new Oblivion player, I can tell you that I chose the wrong majors, because I am playing as a two-handed heavy armour fighter who uses destruction and restoration and lockpicking. After 21 hours of game time I am still level one, even though I am Arena champion. Yes... I think Skyrim will be better.

P.S. I hope the lock picking minigame is different this time. I was excellent at FO3 locks, but I can't do the Oblivion locks.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:17 am

you essentially create your own

Which is what you did in Oblivion and Morrowind.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:01 am

lock picking is supposedly live time now so I doubt it will be much of a mini game at least not with a full screen one as it was in previous titles.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:45 am

Which is what you did in Oblivion and Morrowind.

Yeah, but it was not a product of how you played it was "Here choose some stuff and that will be your stuff the rest of the game."

» Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:44 pm

Hmm. I find it hard to read. Too many people complain over the little things. I don't play ES to dabble over my class (Bow and Arrow.. check. I'm good.) but for the lore, and the story. The fun. I read many books in Oblivion (very many) and I absorbed a lot. There are more in Skyrim. Now, that makes it seem like there is more lore. Now. I am not very pleased with some things they have done. But not the signs, I only ever chose those 3 or the Steed. Doesn't matter to me. I don't care they didn't add spears. I don't care they didn't add mounted combat. I do care if they combine the Cuirass and Greaves into one. That, would be discouraging. Overall, what Beth is doing is experimenting. Changing. Change is for the good, or bad. We'll see on 11-11-11. As for now, I read every article, watch every interview, and all those other things. I am very excited.

Edit: Dear lord, confirm the damn werebeasts. I hate when people complain about it.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:12 am

Yeah, but it was not a product of how you played it was "Here choose some stuff and that will be your stuff the rest of the game."

You weren't forced to stick to your majors outside of leveling up. And if you chose the wrong majors, how is that the game's fault? Know what you want to play as and start your character off accordingly. You don't say you want to be a warrior and then proceed to put a bunch of magic skills as your majors.

» Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:23 pm

You weren't forced to stick to your majors outside of leveling up. And if you chose the wrong majors, how is that the game's fault? Know what you want to play as and start your character off accordingly. You don't say you want to be a warrior and then proceed to put a bunch of magic skills as your majors.

Even so, I still find that the new method is better. You don't need something at the beginning to tell you who you are. You simply play who you want to be and that is what you become. This way you are also not penalized for choosing one or two wrong major skill.

Also Brofist Porter Justice

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:02 am

90% of what I've seen I love. I don't like the UI, the lack of mounted combat and the simplified armor system. Everything else looks great to me. I chose option 2.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:07 am

There is really nothing I "don't like the looks of" although there are some things I wish they would have included.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:34 am

100% the first answer.

» Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:55 am

You don't need something at the beginning to tell you who you are.

The game doesn't tell you. YOU DO. Except now in Skryim, the game DOES tell you who you are. A peasant know-nothing.

This way you are also not penalized for choosing one or two wrong major skill.

Except the same thing will happen in Skyrim. You put one perk in the wrong skill, and you're already penalized. In fact, even more so than in the past games because choosing that wrong perk for the wrong skill will make you overall weaker. If I picked the wrong skill in the past games, I could still be just as powerful as I would be if I hadn't. Now? Not so much.