[RELz] Phitt's Phighting Phixes : IV - Oblivion

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:54 pm

OK, I'll change that. Thanks! The reason I'll try vanilla settings is that I got a bit confused about the connection between less knockback and stagger above. I'd like to keep stagger as it is in vanilla, but I presumed the knockback was rather the slide NPC's/PC make when hit? Anyway, easy enough to experiment around with.

EDIT: BTW, would it be possible to have on/off switches for the separate features, i.e. like set PPP.LessKnockback 1 or 0?

Stagger has nothing to do with knockback, neither does PPP affect stagger behaviour in any way. Knockback is what you can see in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmOaax84O6M video.

Zombies are affected more than most other creatures by it (in vanilla) since their agility is extremely low, which is what the knockback reduction setting you had problems with controls. That setting is a bit stupid since not all big creatures have high agility (since you'd expect them to be knocked back less) and not all small creatures have low agility (since you'd expect them to be knocked back more). That's why we decided to make the knockback effect depend only on the amount of damage done and generally make it more subtle than before. Low damage will cause (almost) no knockback, high damage will cause a noticeable, but not ridiculous looking knockback effect now independant from the agility value of the target. In vanilla you always get a knockback effect and for creatures with low agility it looks pretty ridiculous like can be seen in the video (especially on uneven terrain - Michael Jackson is alive!).

I guess it would be possible to have a switch, but some features already have a switch like that and the other ones only have a few settings that you need to set back to vanilla or to 0 or -1.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:03 am

Stagger has nothing to do with knockback, neither does PPP affect stagger behaviour in any way. Knockback is what you can see in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmOaax84O6M video.

Zombies are affected more than most other creatures by it (in vanilla) since their agility is extremely low, which is what the knockback reduction setting you had problems with controls. That setting is a bit stupid since not all big creatures have high agility (since you'd expect them to be knocked back less) and not all small creatures have low agility (since you'd expect them to be knocked back more). That's why we decided to make the knockback effect depend only on the amount of damage done and generally make it more subtle than before. Low damage will cause (almost) no knockback, high damage will cause a noticeable, but not ridiculous looking knockback effect now independant from the agility value of the target. In vanilla you always get a knockback effect and for creatures with low agility it looks pretty ridiculous like can be seen in the video (especially on uneven terrain - Michael Jackson is alive!).

I guess it would be possible to have a switch, but some features already have a switch like that and the other ones only have a few settings that you need to set back to vanilla or to 0 or -1.

Thanks for the clarification on that. I guessed so but was unsure.

It's no biggie either way with switches, but WITH SCISSORS has quite a few settings. Perhaps for that and LIMITED MOBILITY? I'm just inherently lazy I guess...

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:36 pm

EDIT2: Seems like there is a mistake in the ini. The vanilla setting for PPP.KnockbackReduction is not 0.8, it's -0.008. With 0.8 it is no wonder you teleport to the max value of 512 units everytime you get hit. Someone with agility 100 will get 80x as much knockback effect as the worst case in vanilla...lol

Gah, this is what I get for going on vacation.

PPP.KnockbackReduction is -100x the GMST fKnockbackAgilMult. This was to keep the value positive (configuration simplicity) and to avoid rounding problems if people want very small values. So a value of 0.8 in the .ini is equivalent to the vanilla GMST's -0.008. I figured this was a safe enough conversion because nobody else has ever modded that value, so there wouldn't be any cause for confusion among users. Of course, I probably should have commented on this to the person who has modded that value, and is supporting this release. :spotted owl: The initially shipped default was (and remains) correct, per design; of course that doesn't rule out a bug in implementation. But I'm pretty sure this is working correctly... I'm 90% sure I tested it with vanilla values, and glancing at it right now the code looks fine. When you had the issue, what were your settings for the whole knockback section?

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:11 am

Time for a little more praise!

A couple of things in this that has made a great gaming experience form me:
1. Usually to nerf the pot abuse one has so far only limited the amount of potions one could use at diff skill levels of alchemy. Now with your method of keeping the PC to a walk has helped allot to alleviate this abuse - thank you, that was a great implementation and idea!
2. Also the force to walk when sheathing a weapon makes the game a little more immersive, it just feels right having to slow down when fiddling with all those straps and stuff.
3. Spellcasting too! Stop to walking speed is just sooooo great an idea!

And all the rest, just wanted to praise one part of the mod people haven't been mentioning much.

Cheers!

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:07 pm

Phitt:

I saw http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=34160 from migck in this mod, and was wondering if this can be merged with your mod, or better, incorporated into your mod as well (with permission from Migk)?

I ask this because the theme is the same and I would save one esp slot (already low on those), and not sure if I can merge these 2 mods together.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:23 am

Phitt:

I saw http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=34160 from migck in this mod, and was wondering if this can be merged with your mod, or better, incorporated into your mod as well (with permission from Migk)?

I ask this because the these is the same and I would save one esp slot (already low on those), and not sure if I can merge these 2 mods together.

+1, sounds like a really good idea!

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:18 am

PPP is doing something odd when my char gets hit. every time i get hit, without blocking, my char teleports to a different spot, spins around, or fails through the floor into the blue. i unchecked the PPP esp and the problem went away so i figure PPP is the cause. anyone ever had this issue before? any solutions?

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:50 pm

PPP is doing something odd when my char gets hit. every time i get hit, without blocking, my char teleports to a different spot, spins around, or fails through the floor into the blue. i unchecked the PPP esp and the problem went away so i figure PPP is the cause. anyone ever had this issue before? any solutions?

Sounds like a mod interaction issue to me. I have PPP and it works fine.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:18 am

Sounds like a mod interaction issue to me. I have PPP and it works fine.

hmmm, i wonder which one it is messing w/ PPP. i didn't think it was a interaction issue so i didn't originally post my load order. here is it. i don't know which one would be messing with PPP- as i think none of my mods alter damage values for melee ( LAME may alter magical dmg; however, if i remember correctly it only changes the duration of buffs and magicka costs for spells).

Spoiler

Oblivion.esm
Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm
Mart's Monster Mod.esm
Mart's Monster Mod for OOO.esm
HorseCombatMaster.esm
Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp
UOP Vampire Aging & Face Fix.esp
DLCShiveringIsles.esp
Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp
Enhanced Economy.esp
Streamline 3.1.esp
Map Marker Overhaul.esp
Map Marker Overhaul - SI additions.esp
Enhanced Hotkeys.esp
Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
Mart's Monster Mod for OOO.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Shivering Isles.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Gems & Gem Dust.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Hunting & Crafting.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Less Bone Loot.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Less Rats.esp
Mart's Monster Mod for OOO - NoReaversInGates.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - No Carrion Rats.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Spawn Rates - Reduced.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - More Wilderness Life.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - City Defences.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Extra Wounding.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Farm Animals.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse WaterLife.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Slof Horses Complete.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse Runeskulls Loot G&GD.esp
OOO-WaterFish.esp
Kragenir's Death Quest.esp
KDQ - Rural Line Additions.esp
Knights.esp
Mart's Monster Mod for OOO - Knights .esp
xuldarkforest.esp
xulStendarrValley.esp
xulTheHeath.esp
XulEntiusGorge.esp
xulFallenleafEverglade.esp
xulColovianHighlands_EV.esp
xulChorrolHinterland.esp
xulBeachesOfCyrodiilLostCoast.esp
KragenirsDeathQuest-LostCoast patch.esp
xulBravilBarrowfields.esp
xulLushWoodlands.esp
xulAncientYews.esp
xulAncientRedwoods.esp
xulCloudtopMountains.esp
KragenirsDeathQuest-CloudtopMountains patch.esp
xulArriusCreek.esp
xulPatch_AY_AC.esp
xulRollingHills_EV_withoutWheat.esp
KragenirsDeathQuest-RollingHills patch.esp
xulPantherRiver.esp
xulRiverEthe.esp
xulBrenaRiverRavine.esp
xulImperialIsle.esp
xulBlackwoodForest.esp
xulCheydinhalFalls.esp
xulAspenWood.esp
xulSkingradOutskirts.esp
xulSnowdale.esp
OOO-Snowdale Patch.esp
Harvest [Flora].esp
Harvest [Flora] - Shivering Isles.esp
Birthsigns Expanded.esp
Birthsign Zero.esp
Class Advantages.esp
P1DkeyChain.esp
Short Grass V3.esp
Quest Award Leveling SI.esp
Quest Award Leveller.esp
Quest Award Leveller - Knights of the Nine.esp
Enchantment Enhanced.esp
SM Combat Hide.esp
attack and hide medium v2.1.esp
DeadlyReflex 5 - Combat Moves.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Resized Races.esp
bgMagicEV.esp
bgMagicItemSigil.esp
bgMagicEVStartspells.esp
bgMagicBonus.esp
bgMagicEVAddEnVar.esp
TRAP.esp
Enhanced Economy - Soulgems.esp

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:42 am

Are you using the default settings for the knockback feature?

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:59 am

Are you using the default settings for the knockback feature?

no, i set them to the vanilla values provided in the ini:
set PPP.KnockbackBase to 50
set PPP.KnockbackDamage to 10
set PPP.KnockbackMax to 512
set PPP.KnockbackReduction to 0.8
set PPP.KnockbackTime to 1.0

i also set all the movement limiting features to zero which i gather turns them all off?

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:08 pm

no, i set them to the vanilla values provided in the ini:

Possible I messed up when I transcribed those. Try resetting to defaults and see if you get the same behavior. If that fixes it, I'll review the vanilla settings. (It's not just a copy-paste from vanilla, there's math involved.)

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:08 am

Possible I messed up when I transcribed those. Try resetting to defaults and see if you get the same behavior. If that fixes it, I'll review the vanilla settings. (It's not just a copy-paste from vanilla, there's math involved.)

yep that fixed it. seems those values need to be recalculated.

thanks for the help, and keep up the great work =)

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:39 pm

Heh... values are fine. Script's broken. I multiplied instead of dividing. :banghead:

This doesn't affect the defaults because that setting is disabled by default. To get vanilla without editing the script, use a value of 0.00008.

If you're comfortable editing the script, find the following line:
let value := -100 * KnockbackReduction
and change it to:
let value := KnockbackReduction / -100

...then the vanilla values will work as printed.

Phitt, you catch that?

BTW, I think there's a math error somewhere in the damage multiplier as well. I made use of the xDMexception feature recently (yay!), and while doing compatibility testing I noticed that with the multiplier set to 2.0, I'm getting a 4x actual effect. Not game-breaking, but annoyingly inconsistent!

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:58 am

Phitt, you catch that?

BTW, I think there's a math error somewhere in the damage multiplier as well. I made use of the xDMexception feature recently (yay!), and while doing compatibility testing I noticed that with the multiplier set to 2.0, I'm getting a 4x actual effect. Not game-breaking, but annoyingly inconsistent!

so are you saying that with the damage multiplier set to 2.0 you are doing 4x vanilla damage instead of 2x? that would explain why i have been one-shot killing enemies with my spells that before took 3-4 shots =)

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:05 pm

so are you saying that with the damage multiplier set to 2.0 you are doing 4x vanilla damage instead of 2x?

Well, I'm definitely receiving 4x damage. Probably dealing too, though I didn't test. Hope so, that's the design... as long as dealt and received are identical multipliers, it's really just a cosmetic flaw.

Easy to test this yourself. Open the console, click someone, type "getav health" and see what it says. Cast a spell with a known damage amount, console that command again, see how much health they lost.

Edit: Please do that test, if you get the chance. I'm showing inconsistent results... player receiving more extra damage than enemies. This is odd, since I'm quite certain Phitt and I both tested that before release. Probably something unaccounted on my end since my load order is in "development" state and not play-stable, but I'd like verification...

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:57 am

Heh... values are fine. Script's broken. I multiplied instead of dividing. :banghead:

This doesn't affect the defaults because that setting is disabled by default. To get vanilla without editing the script, use a value of 0.00008.

If you're comfortable editing the script, find the following line:
let value := -100 * KnockbackReduction
and change it to:
let value := KnockbackReduction / -100

...then the vanilla values will work as printed.

Phitt, you catch that?

BTW, I think there's a math error somewhere in the damage multiplier as well. I made use of the xDMexception feature recently (yay!), and while doing compatibility testing I noticed that with the multiplier set to 2.0, I'm getting a 4x actual effect. Not game-breaking, but annoyingly inconsistent!

Will correct that and upload a new version once it is clear that the damage multiplier works as intended.

Well, I'm definitely receiving 4x damage. Probably dealing too, though I didn't test. Hope so, that's the design... as long as dealt and received are identical multipliers, it's really just a cosmetic flaw.

Easy to test this yourself. Open the console, click someone, type "getav health" and see what it says. Cast a spell with a known damage amount, console that command again, see how much health they lost.

Edit: Please do that test, if you get the chance. I'm showing inconsistent results... player receiving more extra damage than enemies. This is odd, since I'm quite certain Phitt and I both tested that before release. Probably something unaccounted on my end since my load order is in "development" state and not play-stable, but I'd like verification...

I tested myself and I was a bit confused at first about the 4x damage with a 2x damage multiplier (see PM :bonk:). But you have to keep in mind that the damage the player receives is already affected by difficulty, that's why 4x damage is fine. Example (you may not understand this if you don't know how the mod works):

You set the damage multiplier to 2.0 and play at medium difficulty slider setting (50%). In vanilla you do 1x damage and you receive 1x damage. Now the mod adjusts the difficulty (which can't be seen by players thanks to Tejon's script) so the player deals 2x damage and receives 0.5x damage. Since he receives 0.5x damage the mod multiplies the damage he receives by 4 so in total he receives 2x damage as well.

My tests showed that everything works fine in both directions. I play with 2x damage and a difficulty of 55% (player damage /1.5, enemy damage *1.5) and I got exactly what I thought I'd get. My char did 133% vanilla damage and enemies did 300% damage. I tested with other damage settings and difficulties and the results were consistent so I don't think there is anything wrong with the script.

EDIT: Further tests showed that spells cast from activators are not affected by difficulty. They always deal the same amount of damage. Spells my char fired at my test goblin worked fine though. I'm sure now that the damage enemies receive works fine as I tested with melee weapons and spells with various difficulty settings and damage multipliers. Only need to test player damage a bit more.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:15 pm

Well, I'm definitely receiving 4x damage. Probably dealing too, though I didn't test. Hope so, that's the design... as long as dealt and received are identical multipliers, it's really just a cosmetic flaw.

Easy to test this yourself. Open the console, click someone, type "getav health" and see what it says. Cast a spell with a known damage amount, console that command again, see how much health they lost.

Edit: Please do that test, if you get the chance. I'm showing inconsistent results... player receiving more extra damage than enemies. This is odd, since I'm quite certain Phitt and I both tested that before release. Probably something unaccounted on my end since my load order is in "development" state and not play-stable, but I'd like verification...

ill gladly try this out when i get home, if you still need me to do a test?

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:16 am

Since he receives 0.5x damage the mod multiplies the damage he receives by 4 so in total he receives 2x damage as well.

Hurp-a-durp, of course that's what's happening. :facepalm: It's just when I deal the damage at the console, it's not halved before being quadrupled. Right then. You'd think I'd remember that after writing the script from scratch and getting it right. :bonk:

No need for you to do anything, grlz.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:40 am

Phitt:

I saw http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=34160 from migck in this mod, and was wondering if this can be merged with your mod, or better, incorporated into your mod as well (with permission from Migk)?

I ask this because the theme is the same and I would save one esp slot (already low on those), and not sure if I can merge these 2 mods together.

Bump for this earlier post of mine, as I think this got waylaid due to some troubleshooting.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:05 pm

Goodness me! With these phiting fixes and deadlier creatures you're literally killing me! :toughninja:

I have a question regards the less knockback feature. I've left the numbers as they come in the ini, but I'm wondering if these values effect the player? I assumed they did. :blink:
I'm in a cave with Trolls and Minators and having difficulty when going toe-to-toe because when they hit me it's knocking me back so much I'm unable to get any attacks in.
I wondered if it could be another mod interacting but I can't think of any others that do this

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:30 am

Phitt:

I saw http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=34160 from migck in this mod, and was wondering if this can be merged with your mod, or better, incorporated into your mod as well (with permission from Migk)?

I ask this because the theme is the same and I would save one esp slot (already low on those), and not sure if I can merge these 2 mods together.

That is indeed a much needed fix - it's quite stupid that a minotaur with a warhammer is (much!) weaker than one without. I use it myself since you posted it here (thanks). You can merge both mods without problems. I don't want to incorporate it into PPP since I'd steal his idea then. I could ask him for permission, but personally I only have >100 mods active and have no problems. And like I said, you can merge it if you have too many mods.

Goodness me! With these phiting fixes and deadlier creatures you're literally killing me! :toughninja:

I have a question regards the less knockback feature. I've left the numbers as they come in the ini, but I'm wondering if these values effect the player? I assumed they did. :blink:
I'm in a cave with Trolls and Minators and having difficulty when going toe-to-toe because when they hit me it's knocking me back so much I'm unable to get any attacks in.
I wondered if it could be another mod interacting but I can't think of any others that do this

They affect the player, but with default ini settings there are no problems (been playing with the mod active for many hours now). With default settings the push back effect will be even less than in vanilla. Or did you change the values back to vanilla? I still didn't upload a fixed version (I should), but in case you want the vanilla behavior do this:

Heh... values are fine. Script's broken. I multiplied instead of dividing. :banghead:

This doesn't affect the defaults because that setting is disabled by default. To get vanilla without editing the script, use a value of 0.00008.

If you're comfortable editing the script, find the following line:
let value := -100 * KnockbackReduction
and change it to:
let value := KnockbackReduction / -100

...then the vanilla values will work as printed.

If you have default ini settings it has to be a different mod. Maybe the 'Smash of the Titans' mod by Duke Patrick? I think it makes large creatures push you back like crazy if they hit you. Although I wouldn't call a troll a large creature, so maybe it's not that.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:33 pm

mmm, maybe it's realistic fatigue making me kind of stumble when being hit :shrug: Its a great mod though as it's made it a challenge again :woot:
A fixed version release would be great, if you think it need fixing...

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:14 pm

Time and motivation permitting, I'd like to revisit this project at some point -- like, a total rebuild, Version 2.0 sort of thing. Right after we wrapped it up, several OBSE functions were unveiled which would have allowed me to code the Damage Multiplier the way I originally thought it should work. Then a few more came out which allow full native support for fractional damage, as opposed to the functional but clunky work-around currently in place. It's not super-high priority because everything works right now, it's just extra polish and cleaner scripts; but if that does come to pass, I do think migck's fix is a prime candidate for inclusion. I'm well under 100 mods myself, but I appreciate that many are at the ceiling, and this is already a multi-author mod so what's one more?

Obviously I'd talk to him about it first, but he, I and Phitt are all old veterans around here, and we've all borrowed our share of ideas -- I don't think there'll be any worries about intentions.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:11 am

Time and motivation permitting, I'd like to revisit this project at some point -- like, a total rebuild, Version 2.0 sort of thing.

Yes, please do

I do think migck's fix is a prime candidate for inclusion. I'm well under 100 mods myself, but I appreciate that many are at the ceiling, and this is already a multi-author mod so what's one more?

Obviously I'd talk to him about it first, but he, I and Phitt are all old veterans around here, and we've all borrowed our share of ideas -- I don't think there'll be any worries about intentions.

Yes, please add that one as well. When a feature fits in that well, it is definitely a good idea to add it in. I asked for quite a lot of permissions for Map Maker Overhaul (mostly map icons, but also placements of Ayleid Wells, Stones, etc., and the repositioning of all vanilla markers), and got positive responses from all of them, so its worth a try.