Phony Skyrim vs. Immersive Skyrim : V - Skyrim

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:15 pm

Naked, and alone. Ready to give a phone book hell.

:obliviongate: <- Whoa, awesome.

Are you Sarah Conner?

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:27 pm

Might have bitten off more than I could chew here on an introductory topic post... Maybe I should stick to the simpler things.

Like the weresharks.

» Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:03 am

+1 StoneFrog

Morrowind: What do you want to do today? There's so much more I have to show you.
Oblivion: Who do you want to fight?

I was split by the second part of the poll. Exploration is great, but the player misses out on so much without the background provided by law and culture.

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:42 pm

I definitely agree with the OP, that feeling like an outcast--an outlander--in Morrowind gave more incentive to learn the culture and the area and to get involved. Oblivion didn't have that as much, but that's a good thing. I say this because there's absolutely no reason you should have to do that in Oblivion. One should not blame the game, it's exactly in-line with how Cyrodiil is. Cyrodiil is more familiar to the player than Vvardenfell because Cyrodiil is more like real life in western society. That's how it should be! Some people complain about things like that and claim it's too mainstream, but again, I say it's all perfectly in line with the lore of what Cyrodiil should be.

The whole series, from what I've played (Morrowind + expansions, Oblivion + expansions/plugins, some Arena, some Daggerfall) has been a great immersive experience. I learn about the game world by talking to the people, reading the books, and then reading more online. Everything about the games is enthralling to me. Being able to neglect the main quest and explore, learning the lore, the little things like finding a bunch of skooma in someone's basemant or a dead body with a note on the side of the road, and really becoming a part of the community. I feel like all of my past characters, both in Morrowind and Oblivion, are part of Elder Scrolls lore. When I hear references to the Nerevarine in Oblivion, I think of my Morrowind character. I'm sure when Skyrim makes reference to the Champion of Cyrodiil, I'll think of my Oblivion character.

The Elder Scrolls is a fantastic series. I understand some people's complaints about Oblivion, but I think if they'd take the time to consider it, they'd realize Oblivion is perfect for how Cyrodiil should be, the same way that Morrowind is perfect for the province of Morrowind. Sure, I like the atmosphere and the style of the Dunmer more than the Imperials, but that doesn't make one game better than the other. Take the games for what they are. I don't want to just play Morrowind over and over and over every time a new game comes out.

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:41 am

I love both games. I played a modded morrowind after oblviion came out. Then I played modded oblivion, now I'm having a throwback to modded morrowind. Morrowind was my first REAL game and I'm willing to bet it was for many other people too. However, you have to love Oblivion's elegant simplicity at times, I live for mods and I have played a game in Oblivion where I started with just a pair of pants in the middle of nowhere, and crafted item from the environment and build a self reliant farm. I've hacked, slashed, and burned across Cyrodiil and I've taken it over subtly as a vampire. I have done the same in Morrowind, but with far less direct intervention, all via menus.

In the end though, I love Morrowind too, they are different games to me and each has benefits. I loved the factions in Morrowind, I loved having to survive in Oblivion. Skyrim will combine this with its crafting system, somewhat level scaled, and a slew of other things. I am sure the story line will be great, there have to be more guilds (because they have had the time to work on it.) All in all, given that Skyrim represents the culmination of some of the prophecies, I feel that there will be enough to hold our attention raptly for hours on end. Then what will I do? I will mod it because thats the real beauty of these games, the ability to make it all personal.

Skyrim has so much promise and yet all we see now is pessimism rhetoric on the same old topics. I want my spears, crossbows, and spellmaking back to, but I understand that it is time for a revolution. We've brushed off the incredible things that we are being offered and we must look to the past as that, the past. We voice our opinions, but in the end, Skyrim will be what the developer make it. We have a game with nearly five years behind it, a full new engine, a massive team, a great legacy, and a fervent fan base. So no, I'm not worried.

Each time you see nostalgia, remember that the developers have the exact same feelings and with a low fantasy approach, we are bound to see even more immersion than Morrowind. With the new dual wield system, we'll see more action than Oblivion. With the new crafting, we will see most realism than either. All wrapped up in a beautiful, smart new engine with clever little NPCs to move it along. Skyrim won't be an evolution or either Morrowind or Oblivion, but rather its a revolution that has its roots in the oldest TES games. We know so little and so I say we should enjoy what will inevitably be a fantastic new entry in the TES series.

/inspirational speech

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:00 pm

"Could you imagine how much better fast travel would have felt if it were a spell? Something real in the world instead of a simple menu manipulation?"

As an anti-fast travel discussion fan, I'd accept fast travel more if it was a spell (an actual explanation to it - a spell; with a small downside - magicka loss), even though I'd much prefer a transportation system a la Morrowind.
I agree what you said as well concerning a Morrowind - Oblivion comparison.

In Skyrim fast travel could be immersive if you learnt the guild guide spell from Morrowind

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:58 pm

I like it when I had to stay on my toes in Morrowind. I realized this when it was my first time playing. I was like "cool, it goes from day to night to day to night!" (I was deprived I know) then I got my [censored] rocked because I tried to pet a Nix Hound

» Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:12 am

i've played oblivion first, after 400 hours of oblivion i decided that the elder scroll was my favorites series of all time and i decided to play the others, i've already knew about the existence of morrowind before but i hated it, mounths later o bought oblivion, when i played morrowind for the segund time, already knowing a litle about the gameplay mechanics betwen elder scroll games and about its lore, i finaly passe through level 1 and i loved it, now im a morrowind player, but it doesn't mean i stoped playing oblivion ad started to hate it, till today, ive played over thousands of hours of oblivion , and even more hours of morrowind, i love rpg games, and i like to feel like this world is real to me, oblivion certainly is a very funny game, can keep you busy for hours, but the athmosphere is to like.." thats a joke do whatever you want!" like if there is no conseguence for anything bad or good i do, like(classic example) becoming a archmage, no one gives a damn if your the all mighty archmage of the mages university, probaly the best mage school in the world of nirm!( not talking about battlespire , the university of the battlemages) they all treat you like a regular person, in morrowind its diferent, you enter in this world and everything changes around you, you get praticvaly eaten by its culture, and the customization makes alot of unforgetable characters through out the game, AND I LOVE PAULDRONS!=D , more then that, i doubt skyrim is going to be any close to morrowind, probaly if it was it would be the best game in the world for me, but certainly, its not going to be a OBLIVION 2, every elder scroll game is unique, so i guess there is no point in actually keep comparing games to see wich one would fit better in skyrim, its going to be unique, just expect and see...

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:02 pm

Immersive open world sandbox. That's Morrowind and Oblivion to me.

» Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:06 am

While I voted all games are immersive, I should clarify that while Daggerfall and Oblivion were immersive places to me, Morrowind definitely takes the cake for being the most interesting. The first time I accidentally stumbled on to Vivec, I was amazed. Watching Netches float by harmlessly was enthralling. The whole world, as unbelievable and vibrant as it was, completely mystified me and always made me want to explore more.

While I know that Skyrim is supposed to be a more "realistic" kind of setting, based upon what I've seen so far, I'm still pretty excited to explore it, it looks really interesting.

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:44 pm

I think there's going to be a certain amount of "Wow" factor to whatever you played first. I remember Daggerfall as ridiculously immersive, free-form, and fun. I spent hours and hours on the Betony demo alone, before the game came out. Bought the Daggerfall Chronicles through mail order even though I'd already completed the main quests.

If I went back and played it again, I'm sure a lot of my nostalgic feelings would get replaced a bit. This would be the same with the immersion; though I remember being entirely invested in that game world and it being fully believable, I doubt this would be the case if I were to revisit.

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:35 pm

I suppose that does make sense. I play Morrowind first, and that's locked in my head as one of the best games of all time, and one of the games I still continue to play despite it's age.

Then again, I also really liked Daggerfall, which I only played in between Morrowind and Oblivion, and thought that game was damn good as well. Oblivion was a bit of a letdown to me, because I thought for all it did right, the simplified aspects were a step in the wrong direction.

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:37 pm

I'm starting a separate topic to discuss some differences in presentation between Morrowind and Oblivion, and how some of those differences might be anolyzed and improved upon to help better Skyrim.

I've mentioned that I am yet another Morrowind junkie that feels a little bit... out of place in Cyrodiil. I believe a great deal of this has to do with the realism and immersion presented in each of these games. Oblivion is a game that I can play/have played with a group of people while sharing jokes and eating chips. Oblivion does not demand as much attention as Morrowind does, and it goes a long way to provide a pleasant experience for the player (both in terms of gameplay and visuals). Morrowind made no such effort to appeal to the player. In Morrowind the player was supposed to feel like the outcast, and it was the player's responsibility to imitate and assimilate. This made it very important for the player to take the rules of Morrowind seriously. An NPC's disposition, range of vision, faction affiliation and supply of gold were things the player had to closely monitor. In Oblivion, it didn't really matter if you paid attention to any of that. You never had to argue over price, you never suffered terribly for committing any kind of crime (because there were always funds available) and nearly every interaction was customized to your level (making it impossible to screw up too badly).

The result of this is that Morrowind players are much more rule-abiding and rule-conscious than Oblivion players. This also makes Morrowind players more shocked when they realize these rules can be bent or broken. (And how!) Magic that can permanently increase your statistics if you know how to use it right, the ability to fast-travel between dungeons if you have the right items, the ability to create potions that make you nearly invincible to harm, ascension into the role of a god and levitation (woo!) are all examples of rigid rules in Morrowind being outright broken; creating a sense of excitement for the player because these abilities seem almost taboo--like legal cheats.

In Oblivion I dupe items on my 360 just for the sake of seeing a meat-accordion. I know that the cheat breaks the game, but there is no rule there I have reverence for to keep me from doing it (or to make me appreciate it). It's not magic, it's not alchemy; it's a trick. Who cares? If that gets boring I'll go kill an NPC and rub venison on the guard's face. Realism.

My purpose in saying this is that I hope Skyrim will create an apparently rigid and rule-driven game world that I can break in serious ways later in the game (or early in the game if I look it up on YouTube). The reason being, I know I'll be doing something special. I don't want to manipulate the menus to earn gold and items. I want to manipulate the world of magic, alchemy and enchanting to make believe that there still are rules, I'm just smarter than them. Could you imagine how much better fast travel would have felt if it were a spell? Something real in the world instead of a simple menu manipulation?

I'm not scared of big numbers. I don't mind if my luck is at 9999, if I did it using the skill of my character and not some flaw in programming. If my character is smart enough to create a potion that makes him invulnerable, more power to him. It was HE WHO DID IT ANYWAY, not me!

What is everyone's thought on this?

P.S.: If my character can sneak through a group of level 30 mobs at level 10 and earn a level 40 piece of equipment, that should also count as a viable progression (considering it was based on my character's ability to sneak).

First off, just a great post. Very well done indeed. I agree with nearly all your points. I chose the earlier games, DF beign the prime one. The music, the danger of dungeons, and all the little details were immersive. It's also the finest MQ, IMHO. Anyway, looking forward to following this thread.

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:09 pm

P.S.: If my character can sneak through a group of level 30 mobs at level 10 and earn a level 40 piece of equipment, that should also count as a viable progression (considering it was based on my character's ability to sneak).

Very well said!

Sometimes in Morrowind I'll stumble upon a dungeon that's far too difficult to clear - and I'll make it a point to come back to it later. But sometimes I may do something crafty like use my leftover invisibility potions or a summon scroll to create a diversion so I can get to some particular piece of loot before making a quick escape. That's not in any way breaking the rules of the game - I'm not supposed to necessarily get through such a situation alive at a low level.. I know I could just wait a few more levels and fight through, and often I do - but sometimes it's fun to just be daring and accomplish something you wouldn't think possible.

Can't do that if the world is level scaled and everything is idiot-proofed to only work out in a certain way.

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:50 pm

Yay! My first Legendary Fishy Stick! Oh how I have heard of you, fishy stick. You stick made of fishes you.

enjoy it, i never got one! *grumble* :sadvaultboy:

anyway, i ticked morrowind, and when i'm out of this drunken state i may actually be able to add to this discussion

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:38 pm

Agree with Stonefrog too. :thumbsup:

On the OPs subject of the "rule system", I totally agree that Morrowind makes you more rule conscious. When I played through Morrowind for the first time, man I felt like a total bum - had no money, no place to stay, no decent equipment and progress was brutal, but nomatter it never even crossed my mind to kill a shop owner and swipe their bed, shop and stock.

Oblivion, on the other hand, especially the crazy guild "warehouses", put-in-for-play-testing-and-not-replaced-with-something-more-appropriate-because-we-didn't-have-time-fast-travel and CSI like storekeepers who don't need no forensics kit to identify stolen goods - well, it positively encourages you to play the system because it puts you squarely outside the game's own world system from day one.

Fallout also positively rewarded you for wiping out whole towns just to get their stuff to sell for caps, but at least this was part of the setting.

Establishing a rule system is a very difficult balance in a sandbox game with the depth of TES, and as this poll shows (so far) most people think Morrowind came the closest to getting it right. I don't think there was any magic trick that Morrowind did, it just treated the player fairly and made them subject to the same rules as the rest of the world. **Anything** that breaks that connection to the world (looking at you, fast travel) - especially at the lower levels, is going to lead to chronic abuse of the system and empty rewards later on.

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:32 pm

I find Morrowind too immersive, when I play it I stop caring about anything else and just want to play the damn game. It'd be cool if I had a good amount of time to play it :homestar:

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:51 pm

I find Morrowind too immersive, when I play it I stop caring about anything else and just want to play the damn game. It'd be cool if I had a good amount of time to play it :homestar:

Whenever I'm depressed, I seriously wish I lived in Tamriel. There's disadvantages to fictional worlds being so amazingly vivid and deep in lore, they sometimes make you absolutely sick of being in this one. :shakehead:

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:54 pm

To me the immersion was better in Morrowind than in oblivion. I think this is because when you arrive in Morrowind you arrive in morrowind. You don't just wake up there like you do in Oblivion. This makes it feel like it is ok not to be accustomed to the culture and lore and ir makes more sense to ask people about lore, I mean they called you 'Outlander' ffs. In Oblivion you just woke up in Cyrodiil, so it felt like I should already know all the lore and that kinda hurt immersion for me. Plus the way cyrodiil was depicted in Oblivion was very cliche whereas Morrowind felt unique.

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:19 pm

Only problem with Oblivion is that it assumed you are accustomed to the world and care about it. You get a main quest to save the world while you're in a dungeon and haven't seen anything else of the world, and after it, unless you simply decide not to roleplay, there's not much free roamming and getting to know it until the gates are closed. But Cyrodill was a great world. I found it as immersive as any other TES, and more towards my taste than Morrowind's. Yea the AI may have had its faults, but it existed, which is a step up already from the previous titles really.

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:45 pm

Only problem with Oblivion is that it assumed you are accustomed to the world and care about it.

Pretty much agree here. Morrowind had an interesting dynamic in how you were a complete stranger, but slowly began to form friendships and an appreciation for the world: only then are you posed the question - are you the Nerevarine, or another failed incarnate? Oblivion jumped into the action too quickly.

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:11 pm

...I should have voted the first two games as immersive. As a whole, I find the series unimmersive but still fun... Oblivion being more immersive than Morrowind.

In Daggerfall (And sometimes ARENA, where applicable):
The NPCs got annoyed when I forgot their names after initial introductions (Even though I thought they all looked the same), and some of the random and proceedurally-generated quests gave some characters unique quirks, like the local lord with a pet Sabre-tooth Tiger named fluffy, which he dotes over and doesn't understand it wants to Kill my character!. Because there's so little interaction with the NPCs in those games, you don't see the artificialness of their personalities. You only get glimpses at who they are. I got to be pretty good friends with some of the Fighters Guild heads, and they'd regularly give me a heads-up on dungeons they've discovered and think I'd be interested in looting. The large, bustling cities also made the places feel more alive.
And the lighting and limited detail (And high contrast in color!) in the claustrophobic dungeons made them awe-inspiring and frightening... but awesome to climb up the subterranean towers(Don't ask) and jump to difficult-to-reach places. In fact... I find Daggerfall's world, with all its quirks (Including no nudity taboo! YAY!) to be the most fun, interesting, and understandable. While the random placement of entrances in the dungeons (And those that had multiple entrances/exits not quite working) started breaking my suspension of disbelief, the fact that there were catacombs under abandoned farmhouses was awesome enough to compensate.
The difficulty of survival in a dungeon was also awe-inspiring, as were the random and wandering monsters.
And when I came across a locked door? I got out the Big Boot of Ass-Kicking.

As much as people decry Oblivion, I saw it as a big step back to the series roots in Daggerfall, with the living cities where people go about their business and have conversations (I didn't pay attention to what was said), and I could have meaningless conversations with everyone through the Speechcraft minigame (Yes, I managed to somehow suspend my disbelief around that feature). The number of dungeons to explore and the voice acting really livened the world up. I found a lot of the voice-acting to be a bit over-enthusiastic (Especially the Redguards), but that just made the world seem like a fun place to be. Unfortunately, the limited dialogue did make the characters less interesting, but not as uninteresting as Morrowind's Information Kiosks.

» Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:15 am

I thought Morrowind was much more immersive than Oblivion was. Political, Religious, cultural, and racial tensions were high, and this was apparent. The hlaalu treated you politely if you were an outlander and the empire was accepted. Slavey was legal. Trade politics and commerce were everything, political and economic growth ment more to the Hlaalu than almost anything else. The Redoran, a religious warrior house, did accept slavery although it wasnt widespread. The Tribunal Temple was a big part of their lives, as well as personal honor. The Telvanni hated you, slavery was well practiced, and while the Dunmer were xenophobic in general, the Telvanni were basically racist. Then there were the Ashlanders, the few imperial settlements, and the widely varying landscapes, Morrowind was way more atmospheric, and immersive than Oblivion. Oblivion seemed so lifeless and generic. One area of Cyrodiil was the same as the other, there were no regional differences to be seen, there were no tensions between races or different religious/political groups. Im really hoping Skyrim will be different. Id like to see some conflict between native Nords and foreigners. conflicts between the native Nordic religion and the imposed imperial cult. Things that make the game more interesting and give more realism to the game.

» Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:38 am

I almost lament newer games, because of how "consistent" and predictable they're becoming in their presentation and format.

Yep.

I get this vibe with Oblivion sometimes. Think of how its dungeons more or less always had chests in the same preset places: niches in the walls for forts, corners for Ayleid casks. I can practically hear Todd speaking in my head: "good work, you've cleared another dungeon, here's your reward as always".

Todd Howard is B. F. Skinner, the gods have mercy!! we're all pigeons mindlessly pecking at buttons to release the goodies.
Glad others feel this way about games and reward play.

What really matters to me in TES games is the world, not the gameplay. My imagination can fill the gaps for the second one, but the world has to be compelling enough to begin with. Think about how Morrowind named all of its NPCs, even prematurely hostile ones such as bandits. I'd look upon their names and think, "wait, I wonder if they have any family?" or "some people in town were mentioning them, I wonder why they turned to a life of crime". Morrowind feels special because it was a world first and a game second. You can tell the developers really had fun making it, adding their own little cliffhangers and mysterious backstories to every location. Morrowind was very sloppy and inconsistent in places: but isn't that just like real life?

Yes it was faulty, but was original with those faults.

However I'm starting to play Oblivion more now.
It's great when modded and offers imo more freedom for building characters just for the sake of building and playing one.
Honestly I like both, and hope Skyrim can find it's own niche rather than emulate any of the others.

» Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:56 pm

Excellent post.

I actually got started on TES games on Xbox. Morrowind to me was truly the game with the most depth on any console and I have yet to encounter another for a console. I liked OB but to me it felt "generic as tylenol"
for many reasons - Ugly draw distance killed immersion, bloom effects killed immersion (I don't want butterflies, trees, and forest whatnot to "glow"), and the big kicker...... there weren''t as many of those "little nuances".

Out of those nuances I loved the strange letters, hand placed items, the falling Bosmer never gets old, and my personal favorite: "Named soul gems". Who the hell needs achievements when you have the "Soul of a Dagoth" in your trophy case.

That being said the past is the past. Here are my thoughts on the future.

Skyrim:

Environment: I strongly believe we can all hail a triumphant return of a world that feels more immersive just by looks alone. My reasoning behind this is that the developers are handcrafting the world and the dungeons. None of this generic copy and paste [censored] that occured in Oblivion. For dungeons there is also a bigger team working on them so I have a strong feeling they will feel more unique.

Factions/Guilds : Magic 8 balls says you will not be the "Master of all" in skyrim

Gameplay: I am still up in the air on this one. I love innovation but only if it is done properly. Ok. I can understand streamlining skills, I can even understand the liklihood of spellmaking being gone is highly probable. But what of value are you adding??
- "side jobs" - Ok... cool concept but where is this headed?? I don't want to play a graphically superior farmville. I fully expect these side jobs will supplement the crafting, but what else? There should be more to it than "Oh I need to stock up on X potion so I must go do a "farming" side job. No no and NO thank you.... especially if your adding some shoddy Fable 2 animations.... then it feels more like...Fable. Be imaginitive. Side jobs should have their own reward in their own right.

- "Perks" - OK cool... I have heard there are between 180 to 280 perks...... This bothers me. It tells me that most of the perks are "rank ups". It also tells me that most of these perks are the completely generic passive abilities found in so many [censored] games by developers wanting to cash in on the "RPG crowd"... or rather the crowd who seeks true depth out of what they buy. Its not to late to fix it but if the majority are +5% firebolt damage annd "+5% mace ignores armor..... NO Thanks!

"Those Little Nuances" - So what is it exactly? It is sometimes hard to define. For one person that falling Bosmer never gets old. Or "man I love laying out those goblin totems and starting a goblin battle royale". Hell it's even those weird-ass letters I found rummaging through that freakish Bosmers household. For me it was the named soul gems of the foes I had conqured..... At the cost of soundy cheesy and naive I am defining this unique Elder Scrolls feature "Heart".
When it feels like the folks at Bethesda have given all to add life to a game through a small facet of something that in all likliehood moves them to put it in the game, Whether it's all of those little nuances above or "Todds firstborn child doing a voice cameo in Fallout 3 or hell even the "Brain in the Jar" ... all of that is heart and soul development. To me that is what makes TES the finest game on the market today. In the end if Bethesda has succeeded in this none of the other really seems to matter as much.