Pick a side. : V

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:32 pm

"...when the sons of Skyrim would spill their own blood..."

We now know that the upcoming civil war in Skyrim is over the Empire - some wishing to secede from the crumbling Empire, some remaining loyal - "Conflict between the two seems inevitable.". Knowing Bethesda, we'll likely be getting involved in this conflict in some way.

So, will your first/main Dovahkiin (I'm aware we'll all explore all possibilities - but everyone has a 'main' character to forge their personal canon) be a loyal supporter of the Empire, despite the loss of the Septim dynasty? Or will they do everything to secure Skyrim's independence, putting a nail in the coffin of the dying Empire?

My main character is an Altmer Warmage - who despite his race thinks that the Empire has been a largely positive thing for Tamriel - it brings stability to the continent, and its underpinnings of Altmer high culture expose even the lowliest human peasant to enlightened mer ideas. I'll be aiding the Empire, with my main/first character.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:10 am

If I have to pick a side, I pick Jenna';s side, my second choice is Reggi's.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:56 pm

I'm a loyalist and will find all separatists and kill them. :ninja:

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:56 am

It's to my understanding that it's not thee Empire. It's not the Septim Empire or the Cyrodillic Empires that we've come to known. That is already gone. It's the Skyrim Empire or Kingdom only. The strong arm of the Septim Empire that has slowly lost power and holding over two centuries until at the time of the game begins the King is murdered and civil war breaks out.

The part on Alduin's Wall that says,

" With the Fourth Era begun, the sons of Skyrim “spill their own blood”, as described by the Blade named Esbern with the announcement trailer. This final terrible event heralds Alduin’s ultimate arrival. As The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim begins, the high king of Skyrim has been murdered. Many within the northern country wish to secede from the crumbling empire, which has been on the decline for 200 years since the fall of the Septim Dynasty. Other Skyrim citizens insist the Empire is still worth fighting for. Conflict between the two sides seems inevitable."

Reminds me of something from the past in Skyrim...

When the last of the Ysgramor line of kings, King Borgas of Winterhold died (or was murdered) during the winter hunt of 1E 369, the Moot, arbiters of the succession, failed to choose the obvious canditate, Jarl Hanse of Winterhold. When the Moot failed to nominate the popular successor it sparked a civil war. The War of Succession was disastrous for Skyrim: it lost the provinces of High Rock, Morrowind and Cyrodiil and cities such as Windhelm were sacked. Skyrim and the Nords engaged in multiple clashes with High Rock over its western Reach, a civil war involving The Wolf Queen of Solitude, an invasion of Cuhlecain's Cyrodiil, and wars with Hammerfell and High Rock during the Imperial Simulacrum.

The war(s) did not end until when the Moot was established to convene only when there was no clear successor. In 1E 420, the Pact of Chieftains brought an end to the conflict.

Interesting.

Spoiler

My previous post on the back history of Skyrim's different Holds, Kings, and the Moot.

But how does the idea of a civil war (seemingly confined to Skyrim) fit with that theory?

Good question I actually had compiled some stuff about that but thought it didn't directly relate so I didn't post it.

When the sons of Skyrim would spill their own blood.

The Sons of Skyrim to me indicates the http://oblivion.wikia.com/wiki/Nedic people who believe that they were created in Skyrim by Kyne when the sky breathed onto the peak of the mountain known as Throat of the World. where http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:High_Hrothgar stands.

The spiritual relationship between the Nords and breath, which is associated with the Sky Goddess Kyne, is also important. As Children of the Sky puts it:

“Nords consider themselves to be the children of the sky. They call Skyrim the Throat of the World, because it is where the sky exhaled on the land and formed them.”

Hence the Song of Return refers not only to Ysgramor's return to Tamriel after the destruction of Saarthal, but to the Nords' return to what they believe was their original homeland.

Atmora was the original home of the Nedic people before they migrated south to Skyrim.

The Nedic people are the ancestors of three of the major modern races that exist in Tamriel. http://oblivion.wikia.com/wiki/Nedic.

A civil war on Atmora had taken place and as a result rose one of the most legendary of all Tamrielic figures, a Nord named Ysgramor, from whom all Nordic kings are descended. Ysgramor gathered all those who wanted to leave Atmora and live in peace. They left Atmora by sea traveling south, eventually arriving at Skyrim at the extreme northern tip of the continent of Tamriel, at a place known as Hsaarik Head.

After arriving in Tamriel, the Nords met and befriended the Falmer, or Snow Elves. The Nords called the land Mereth, in tribute to the Elves that lived there. But the Elves took notice of the rate at which man's population was growing, and soon realized that these men were the first great threat to Elvish civilization on Tamriel.

Contrary to most stories, which erroneously credit Ysgramor with the first human settlement of Tamriel, he and his colonists were simply the latest of a long line of emigrants from Atmora. Indeed, the central continent was already populated by Atmorans and indigenous humans throughout.

Settlers from Atmora made landfall on Skyrim many times before claiming the region as their own. These spaced-out migrations often resulted in clashes with the Aldmer. As it goes, elves and men lived in relative peace and prosperity for a great deal of time. Racial tensions between the two species gradually rose however and it wasn't long before conflict erupted.

The Elves led raids throughout the settlements of men that had come to Tamriel. Most of the Nords were hunted down until only Ysgramor and his two sons survived. They fled back to Atmora on the last remaining longship.

Ysgramor gathered the armies of the nations of Atmora into one large army known as the Five Hundred Companions and set on south to invade Tamriel. When they arrived, they quickly slaughtered the Falmer and made possible the rise of men, eventually creating the Empire.

His clan expanded their territory, and it continued to expand and contract by winning and losing territories in Morrowind and High Rock. After quarrels from the rivalries of the Ysgramor clan however, Skyrim weakened and separated into multiple states during the War of Succession.

- The men that stayed in the cold regions of Skyrim became what we now know as the Nords.
- The Nedics that left to live in High Rock met the Aldmeri already living there. Over time, they interbred, and the Bretons were born.
- The Imperials formed after both the Nedic and Ayleid (wild elves) peoples arrived in Cyrodiil at approximately the same time. Inevitably, there was war, and the Ayleids enslaved the Nedics to create their empire, which was centered around White Gold Tower. Soon after the start of the First Era, the Nords of Skyrim inspired the Nedic slaves to rebel against the iron fist of the Ayleids. So, under the lead of the Slave Queen Alessia, the Nedics rose and fought for freedom in 1 E242. The Alessian Empire of Cyrodiil started in 1 E243 with the crowning of Alessia. At this point, the Nedics in Cyrodiil were becoming what we know as the Imperials.

The history of Skyrim shows that it was only united for brief periods.

The people of Skyrim are ruled by a hereditary King from the Ysgramor Dynasty bloodline. King Harald, at the beginning of the First Era, was the first to relinquish all holdings in Atmora (_{Until that time, the Nords of Atmora and Skyrim had been considered the same group the Nedic or Nedes.}), proclaiming that the people of Skyrim were an independent people. King Harald died in 1E 221and his son, Hjalmer, becomes the next king. King Hjalmer died in 1E 222 and the second son of King Harald, Vrage the Gifted, takes the throne. Vrage the Gifted started the expansion that would eventually lead to the First Empire of Men.

The system which chose the successors to the empire eventually proved to be the Empire's undoing. For a great while the Moot, a gathering of the lords of the many different Holds, chose the successor to the Empire..The majority of Skyrim are ruled by petty Kings and chieftains of villages. The different Holds are ruled by mostly-elected Moots, as well as a Lord of some sort.

The concept of Civil Wars between Skyrim factions AKA Holds is not a new thing either…

When the last of the Ysgramor line of kings, King Borgas of Winterhold died (or was murdered) during the winter hunt of 1E 369, the Moot, arbiters of the succession, failed to choose the obvious canditate, Jarl Hanse of Winterhold. When the Moot failed to nominate the popular successor it sparked a civil war. The War of Succession was disastrous for Skyrim: it lost the provinces of High Rock, Morrowind and Cyrodiil and cities such as Windhelm were sacked. Skyrim and the Nords engaged in multiple clashes with High Rock over its western Reach, a civil war involving The Wolf Queen of Solitude, an invasion of Cuhlecain's Cyrodiil, and wars with Hammerfell and High Rock during the Imperial Simulacrum.

The war(s) did not end until when the Moot was established to convene only when there was no clear successor. In 1E 420, the Pact of Chieftains brought an end to the conflict.

We’re told that the cities of Solitude and Winter Hold hold a bitter rivalry between one another.

Solitude, also known as Haafingar, is one of the most influential and wealthy counties in Skyrim. Rival of Winterhold, It is famous for being the northernmost town in Tamriel and infamous as the seat of the so-called Wolf Queen, Potema.The home of the famous Bards' College, Haafingar is also one of Skyrim's chief ports, and ships from up and down the coast can be found at her crowded quays, loading timber and salted cod for the markets of Wayrest, West Anvil, and Senchal.

Winterhold, Solitude's ancient rival, is the capital of the namesake county and a coastal fortress, located on the northeastern tip of Skyrim. Somewhat isolated from the rest of Nord culture, but still wealthy and influential, it is known as one of the Old Holds. Due to its proximity to Morrowind's border, Winterhold is heavily affected by Dunmer ways and ideas, fueling part of its economy.

Spoiler

Another Take on this...

The "When the sons of Skyrim would spill their own blood." could also be a indicator of Time.

"Til the time after Oblivion opened"

The word "Til" to me indicates this line is just a marker in time. Til meaning "Until" onto the next line, is that too a continuation of the first part, just marking time?

"When the sons of Skyrim would spill their own blood"

(Guess this was right after all)

So much like when Tiber Septim used Thu’um to show the Nords that he was the true son of Skyrim (from the Ysgramor Bloodline perhaps) could that be what the Dovahkiin does?

I think the Dovahkiin will be from the Bloodline of Ysgramor making him able to unite Skyrim together again, making him the true Heir to the Empires of Man, the rightful leader of the Ysgramor Dynasty not some petty lord chosen by the Moot. AND

As the main story progresses and you earn your dragon shouts I think there will be a time come when the player (Dovahkiin) has to unite Skyrim and perhaps all of Tamriel together against Alduin.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:28 am

Being the Imperial nut that I am, I will support the Loyalists, if given a choice.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:00 pm

I'm thinking my first character might be a Bosmer descended from the great ancient warrior, Adoringus Fanos. I will attempt to sabotage the oppressive Empire by stalking their leaders and annoying them with praise. To the death.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:16 pm

loyalist! I hope that we can join the Imperial Legion again that would be pretty sweet.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:17 am

I will be ecstatic if we are involved in some way, but as I haven't yet decided on a definite race, I can't say who I'd support yet.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:48 pm

The Empire has already fallen. There is no saving it. Thats why I chose to secede.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:13 pm

The Empire has already fallen. There is no saving it. Thats why I chose to secede.

Not while I'm around.

bliviongate:

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:37 pm

It's not that Empire. It's not the Septim Empire, the Cyrodillic Empires. That is already gone. It's the Skyrim Empire or Kingdom only. The strong arm of the Septim Empire that has slowly lost power and holding over two centuries until at the time of the game begins the King is murdered and civil war breaks out.

GI's Alduin's Wall article reads differently; The Empire remains, despite being in decline for 200 years since the fall of the Septim dynasty. It has lost a ruling dynasty, but still exists in a weakened state. See how the Roman Empire lost multiple dynasties in its waxes and wanes throughout the centuries.

"Many within the northern country wish to secede from the crumbling empire, which has been on the decline for 200 years since the fall of the Septim Dynasty. Other Skyrim citizens insist the Empire is still worth fighting for."
http://media1.gameinformer.com/images/site/pages/esv/index.html?es=5#

How many Empires with a Septim Dynasty are there? Just one; the Empire.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:04 am

I voted I dont care because my character is not really affiliated with them but will help for the greater good

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:14 pm

Eh, I think the little problem with Alduin far surpasses their civil war, voted don't care.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:53 am

GI's Alduin's Wall article reads differently; The Empire remains, despite being in decline for 200 years since the fall of the Septim dynasty. It has lost a ruling dynasty, but still exists in a weakened state. See how the Roman Empire lost multiple dynasties in its waxes and wanes throughout the centuries.

"Many within the northern country wish to secede from the crumbling empire, which has been on the decline for 200 years since the fall of the Septim Dynasty. Other Skyrim citizens insist the Empire is still worth fighting for."
http://media1.gameinformer.com/images/site/pages/esv/index.html?es=5#

How many Empires with a Septim Dynasty are there? Just one; the Empire.

I know what that reads but I interpret it differently.

So are they talking about the Cyrodilic Empire last known as the Septim Dynasty or are they talking about the Skyrim Empire the first dominant human nation that was ruled by the bloodline of kings descended from Ysgramor that decided to join the Septim Dynasty long ago and become it's strong arm?

Skyrim remained the dominant human nation in Tamriel until it was torn apart by rivalries within the Ysgramor clan. The War of Succession.

Spoiler

When the last of the Ysgramor line of kings, King Borgas of Winterhold died (or was murdered) during the winter hunt of 1E 369, the Moot, arbiters of the succession, failed to choose the obvious canditate, Jarl Hanse of Winterhold. When the Moot failed to nominate the popular successor it sparked a civil war. The War of Succession was disastrous for Skyrim: it lost the provinces of High Rock, Morrowind and Cyrodiil and cities such as Windhelm were sacked. Skyrim and the Nords engaged in multiple clashes with High Rock over its western Reach, a civil war involving The Wolf Queen of Solitude, an invasion of Cuhlecain's Cyrodiil, and wars with Hammerfell and High Rock during the Imperial Simulacrum.

The war(s) did not end until when the Moot was established to convene only when there was no clear successor. In 1E 420, the Pact of Chieftains brought an end to the conflict.

As individual chieftains fought each other, Skyrim gradually lost her holdings in present day Morrowind and High Rock, and certain localities in Skyrim became independent kingdoms. For brief periods, one ruler has managed to unite all of Skyrim, but the Nord character is one essentially of conflict, and the confederacies never last.

The Cyrodilic Empire and later the Septim Empire was able to take advantage of this tendency and recruit the warlike Nords to their side before they became a force of the opposition.

In the third era, if Cyrodiil has been the heart of the Empire, Skyrim has been its strong arm. The greatest threat to the Empire's unity occured in the 120th year, when the so-called Wolf Queen of Solitude, Potema, aunt of the Empress Kintyra, launched a rebellion that became a blood civil war. Though it was eventually quelled, the repercussions are evident to this day.

Under the Imperial Simulacrum of Jagar Tharn, cold animosities between the kingdoms of Skyrim and their neighbors in High Rock and Hammerfell were fanned into the fire of war. Upon the true Emperor's return to his throne, this war ended, but not before Skyrim had reasserted itself on territory it had not held since the 1st Era.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-third-edition-throat-world-skyrim

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:44 pm

loyalist! I hope that we can join the Imperial Legion again that would be pretty sweet.

Would they still use the term Legion?

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:52 pm

I don't care. I do my own thing. B)

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:41 am

So are they talking about the Cyrodilic Empire last known as the Septim Dynasty or are they talking about the Skyrim Empire the first dominant human nation that was ruled by the bloodline of kings descended from Ysgramor?

Skyrim remained the dominant human nation in Tamriel until it was torn apart by rivalries within the Ysgramor clan. The War of Succession.

Spoiler

When the last of the Ysgramor line of kings, King Borgas of Winterhold died (or was murdered) during the winter hunt of 1E 369, the Moot, arbiters of the succession, failed to choose the obvious canditate, Jarl Hanse of Winterhold. When the Moot failed to nominate the popular successor it sparked a civil war. The War of Succession was disastrous for Skyrim: it lost the provinces of High Rock, Morrowind and Cyrodiil and cities such as Windhelm were sacked. Skyrim and the Nords engaged in multiple clashes with High Rock over its western Reach, a civil war involving The Wolf Queen of Solitude, an invasion of Cuhlecain's Cyrodiil, and wars with Hammerfell and High Rock during the Imperial Simulacrum.

The war(s) did not end until when the Moot was established to convene only when there was no clear successor. In 1E 420, the Pact of Chieftains brought an end to the conflict.

As individual chieftains fought each other, Skyrim gradually lost her holdings in present day Morrowind and High Rock, and certain localities in Skyrim became independent kingdoms. For brief periods, one ruler has managed to unite all of Skyrim, but the Nord character is one essentially of conflict, and the confederacies never last.

The Cyrodilic Empire and later the Septim Empire was able to take advantage of this tendency and recruit the warlike Nords to their side before they became a force of the opposition.

In the third era, if Cyrodiil has been the heart of the Empire, Skyrim has been its strong arm. The greatest threat to the Empire's unity occured in the 120th year, when the so-called Wolf Queen of Solitude, Potema, aunt of the Empress Kintyra, launched a rebellion that became a blood civil war. Though it was eventually quelled, the repercussions are evident to this day.

Under the Imperial Simulacrum of Jagar Tharn, cold animosities between the kingdoms of Skyrim and their neighbors in High Rock and Hammerfell were fanned into the fire of war. Upon the true Emperor's return to his throne, this war ended, but not before Skyrim had reasserted itself on territory it had not held since the 1st Era.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-third-edition-throat-world-skyrim

Seems to me that while the Kingdom of Skyrim remains, it's under the banner (like all of Tamriel) of the Empire of the Cyrodiils - the term 'Empire' is rarely used for the province of Skyrim itself, but always used for the Empire once ruled by the Septim Dynasty. I could be wrong, but from a story point of view having a civil war over bits of Skyrim that want to secede from the Kingdom isn't as engaging as the fate of the province itself.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:52 am

Down with general Grantius! Hurrah for general...um...what's his name? Olee! Ysmir is with us because he hates the imps too!

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:31 pm

I've kinda disliked the empire since Morrowind, so my character will be against the empire on my first playthrough, like the nationalist dunmer he/she is.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:02 pm

I voted Loyalist, mainly because I'm more for rejuvinating and strengthening an old idea than throwing it out the window and starting with a new one. That is, of course, depending on what state we find the Empire in after 200 years of decline.

But if the Dovahkiin does end up becoming a new Emperor, I am totally going to make him an Argonian. That will be the most awesome thing ever.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:48 am

City states or a unified Skyrim? Hrmm...if I could, I'd unite Skyrim under the banner of Chaos :chaos: . But.....I don't think I could do such a thing, so let go with whomever is the most powerful, for Chaos has no business with weaklings.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:53 pm

Seems to me that while the Kingdom of Skyrim remains, it's under the banner (like all of Tamriel) of the Empire of the Cyrodiils - the term 'Empire' is rarely used for the province of Skyrim itself, but always used for the Empire once ruled by the Septim Dynasty. I could be wrong, but from a story point of view having a civil war over bits of Skyrim that want to secede from the Kingdom isn't as engaging as the fate of the province itself.

'cept now were in Skyrim where the game takes place, not Cyrodiil where Oblivion took place. The Empire as far as I know was never destroyed until the end of Oblivion and the Skyrim Kingdom decided to join that when they saw Tiber Septim use Thu'um and knew him to be the leader of men.

I guess we'll have to have someone from Bethesda confirm or deny whether in this case they mean the Cyrodilic Empire last known as the Septim Dynasty or are they talking about the Skyrim Empire, the first dominant human nation that was ruled by the bloodline of kings descended from Ysgramor that decided to join the Septim Dynasty long ago and become it's strong arm?

Because from all that I have heard thee Empire, the Septim Dynasty, has no heir to the throne and no longer exists but the Skyrim Empire would still have a King selected by the Moot.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:20 pm

I've added a separate, related poll question on what exactly is meant by 'Empire'. Personally I think there is little doubt, but there is room for interpretation.

We know from The Infernal City that the Empire remained - weakened - after the Oblivion crisis (TIC is set 40 years later), under the rule of the Mede Dynasty. It was not destroyed by the crisis, just weakened. TIC even mentions Skyrim, saying that the new Imperial spying organisation ('The Inward Eyes' if memory serves) dislike assignments there.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:54 am

As an Altmer Id like to vote to side with the dragons and bring about the new kalpa.

Also, the empire is propably Titus Mede's empire, not the Septim one. But Cyrodill, yes.

» Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:39 am

The system which chose the successors to the empire eventually proved to be the Empire's undoing. For a great while the Moot, a gathering of the lords of the many different Holds, chose the successor to the Empire..The majority of Skyrim are ruled by petty Kings and chieftains of villages. The different Holds are ruled by mostly-elected Moots, as well as a Lord of some sort.

So even though a weakened, due to the The War of Succession, Skyrim Empire decided to join the Cyrodilic Empire they still existed as an Empire. A separate empire.

The Cyrodilic Empire and later the Septim Empire was able to take advantage of this tendency and recruit the warlike Nords to their side before they became a force of the opposition.

In the third era, if Cyrodiil has been the heart of the Empire, Skyrim has been its strong arm.