Those are just silly lazy minigames which have hard-set threshold, that's why there's no dynamic effect of the skill value in them. Science was used in dialogue and other encounters. And speech? Well, I guess if you think speech is pointless, then we don't have a lot to talk about.

No Fallout game has ever required you to use a skill in order to become better at it. That's never been how experience worked.

You're thinking of The Elder Scrolls.

I think the perk is called rifleman, non-automatic rifles do x% more damage and (at rank 2+) ignore x%/ have a x% chance to ignore armor

Agreed on both parts -

It's a shame about New Vegas. The concept art and their original ideas/plan for the title would have set the bar for all RPG games, in my opinion.

Seriously, the concept art for New Vegas was twisted but beautiful in its own Fallout way

Even going all the way back to Van Buren. Have you seen that concept art? So, so good.

I think you're thinking of a different Bethesda franchise, man. Fallout never worked like that.

You know you just described Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas's skill system, right?

I was against the idea of losing the skills at first, but now I see that this system is much better. I can actually see the difference when I select a perk. Also, skills aren't really gone, they're just perks now.

RPGs have nothing whatsoever to do with "skill progression". Fallout was unusual because of using skills. The vast majority of RPGs going all the way back to D&D and Wizardry did not use skills, or at least not in the way that Fallout uses them (i.e., an RPG may use something that was called "skills" or something similar but the mechanic of the element was totally different than Fallout's mechanic).

It isn't being apologetic at all. It is pointing out that Fallout's system was broken, useless, and that RPGs never used such a system, anyway. Skills did nothing for Fallout as an RPG and did very little for it as an action / combat game.

Whatever game mechanic is used, it needs to serve the intent of the game. Fallout's skill system failed in that regard due to poor implementation (and possibly due to simply not being appropriate to an RPG).

Seconded. Seriously, I am tired of saying the same things all over again every time someone who just discovered the fallout series, or spent 10 hours playing FO3, suddenly has an opinion and even makes a thread about it trying to appease his inner fan and gain confirmation from other clueless people, spreading misinformation with a thread that doesn't even belong in these forums, because the only thing it does is stating "my geim is better dan urs".

Science in Fallout 4:

• Rank 1: Take full advantage of advanced technology with access to base level and Rank 1 http://fallout4.wiki.fextralife.com/High-Tech+Mods.
• Rank 2: You gain access to Rank 2 http://fallout4.wiki.fextralife.com/High-Tech+Mods. (Level 17)
• Rank 3: You gain access to Rank 3 http://fallout4.wiki.fextralife.com/High-Tech+Mods. (Level 27)
• Rank 4: You gain access to Rank 4 http://fallout4.wiki.fextralife.com/High-Tech+Mods. (Level 41)

Science in New Vegas: [SPOILERS]

Like in Fallout 3, your Science skill relative to the difficulty rating affects how hard the mini game is. Notably, at Science 100, even Hard terminals will have very few words to choose from. This can possibly be as low as 5 possible passwords which, combined with the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Computer_Whiz perk, means an 80% chance of getting most terminals off the bat without even having to look at the words.

Unlike Fallout 3, your Science is used for more than a few random dialogue checks and hacking. Many http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Workbenchcrafting recipes, and some http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Campfire recipes, rely on Science, specifically ones involving Energy Weapons ammunition and http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Chems crafting.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_crafting

• 25 Science to use the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Chemistry_set in http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Doc_Mitchell%27s_house.

• 25 Science to discover that http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Victor_(Fallout:_New_Vegas) has been overridden when you asked him to help fighting the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Powder_Gangers inhttp://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Goodsprings.

• 30 Science to reprogram http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Primm_Slim to become the Sheriff of http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Primm.

• 35 Science to deduce, when speaking to http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Pete_(Fallout:_New_Vegas), how the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Boomers knew to inhabit the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Nellis_Air_Force_Base.

• 45 Science to obtain the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Rebreather without finding a http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Pressure_cooker for http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Jack_(Boomer) in http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Volare!

• 50 Science to hack http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Daniel_Contreras' terminal and download the weapons manifest to get the weapon http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/This_Machine.

• 50 Science to figure out who hacked Primm Slim in Primm.

• 50 Science to teach http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Jack_(Great_Khans) how to make http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Party_Time_Mentats, http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Slasher, http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Rocket and http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Super_stimpak_(Fallout:_New_Vegas) in http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Aba_Daba_Honeymoon.

• 50 Science to get http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Loyal to give you the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_emitter_(item) in http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Ant_Misbehavin%27.

• 50 Science to suggest an alternative to http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fixer for http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Jacob_Hoff.

• 55 Science to upgrade the rocket trajectory at the end of the quest http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Come_Fly_With_Me.

• 55 Science to run the bypass on http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/ED-E, thus lowering the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Repair requirement to 35 (instead of 65). However, on the Xbox 360 (no patches) this is reversed, 55 Repair lowered to 35, requiring 65 Science.

• 60 Science to repair http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Rhonda in http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Mountain.

• 60 Science to reprogram http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fisto_(character) for http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Wang_Dang_Atomic_Tango without a program disc.

• 60 Science to persuade http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Clanden to make a chlorine bomb in http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/How_Little_We_Know.

• 60 Science to persuade http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Ralph_(Fallout:_New_Vegas) to give you his chlorine for free in http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/How_Little_We_Know.

• 70 Science to convince http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Keely that the player must return the data of http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vault_22 to http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Thomas_Hildern in the quest http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/There_Stands_the_Grass.

• 80 Science to bypass the credit check to enter http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/New_Vegas_Strip.

• 80 Science to convince http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Ibsen to delete the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Steel's files on the computers at http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Hidden_Valley.

• 90 Science to convince http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Henry to test the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Stealth_Boy on nightstalker brains in http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Guess_Who_I_Saw_Today.

• 100 Science and 75 speech to end the conflict with http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Klein without the use of violence.

"Skillz aren't gone!" "Skillz are perks now" "It's totally the same"

NV Placebo effect? More like your-ignorance effect.

Skills isn't why I think NV is far superior.

the only thing the old Fallout 3-NV system was good for was creating a good at everything character by the endgame with the only diference being whatever perks you had.

The extra functionality you're describing I have literally never heard of until I read this post. Either you are misinformed, or you are better at figuring out how the game works than anyone who has ever played the game ever in the history of ever. Unfortunately, the former is more likely than the latter.

As for your points about the weapon skill requirements, Unarmed special moves, crafting recipes, and speech options, these are all more examples of the break point system: your skill meets or exceeds an arbitrary value, so you're allowed to do something you couldn't do before. However, the actual value doesn't matter; only whether or not you have hit the break point. The value of the Skill has no affect on the action other than unlocking the ability to perform it. An Uppercut would be just as effective if it were to somehow be performed with a skill level of 5 as it would be if performed with a skill level of 100; the skill has no effect on the action itself.

Now, I'm not saying that the skill system in New Vegas was actually bad. It did work well, and I'm not trying to say otherwise. What I'm saying is that the system was horribly inefficient, requiring you to spend massive amounts of skill points when only a single point would have done the job. This made you feel like you were accomplishing more than you actually were. If your Lockpicking skill was at 25, and you dumped 17 points into it, you had literally wasted those 17 skill points that level; they didn't make Lockpicking any easier, and you were still 8 points short of being able to pick Average locks. You had actually accomplished nothing that level, but because you'd put 17 skill points in the skill, you felt like you had.

Now, to be fair, the system in Fallout 4 is also built on break points. However, now you're not wasting 96 points just to hit 4 break points. The system is now far more efficient, and every point you spend is worth something. And the perks like Gunslinger and Rifleman, that replaced dynamic damage scaling? For each rank you take, you get 40 points worth of damage boost that would have had to be spent over 3 levels (minimum) in New Vegas' system. And you only need to spend a single point. In other words, every point you spend is worth something, and is having a significant impact on the game. Far more than the impact of a single point would have been in New Vegas.

I wasn't trying to say that the Speech skill was pointless. I was trying to point out that of the 100 points it could have, only the one that allowed you to pass the check you were currently attempting mattered. The other 99 didn't do anything. In fact, this is a problem with all the skill-based dialogue options: for that check, only 1 point matters. The other 99 are useless. The other skills do govern something other than dialogue options, so they do have that going for them, but Speech doesn't have even that.

NV is like a negative 10 and fallout 4 is a 9, there's not even a comparison, NV is vastly inferior to falllout 4 its not even funny, all i can say is if you like fallout NV, have fun wtih it, i'm sticking with fallout 4.

Thanks for this post, extremely interesting! And clarifying, off course!

Yes, too bad it is only how the OP wishes to see it - as I point out in my post earlier in my post with wiki enties. What I find even more sad though is that others others are quick to describe it as "clarifying". Look at my post above and see how misinformed the OP is.

No offense, don't know how else to say it but you are the dream sheep every kind of corporation is dreaming about. At least it's Bethesda in this case - which is a great company winning over the crowds with quality in general, but I am certain that the same people here acting this way, judging from their sources of "clarification", are the ones who keep feeding EAs MT's etc etc.

You especially lurking from thread to thread replying only in the lines of "fallout 4 is perfect, your complaint is invalid" with mostly one-lined posts. What do you hope to gain by this? I understand you liking the game and being emotionally attached to it but if I liked the game so much I wouldn't be spending so much time posting plus I would never, never go around the forums and try to dismiss every complain - especially the subjective ones - people may have, like I was trying to convince myself that the game is perfect.

You guys blatantly ignore any skill checks the previous games had in dialogue/reactivity with environment for starters. Seriously? That used to be regarded by everyone as one of the best characteristics of fallout and you just blatantly ignore it because of some ...feelings that the game gets bashed a lot and you ought to save it from the bashing. Seriously...

I simply like Fallout 4 for what it is. I played F3 and NV, and loved the atmosphere in the first, the quantity of weapons in the second. The skill points were for me interesting,but at the same time a clunky mechanic to force the player to choose a certain style and therefore stick to it. I like the more dinamic system developed for Fallout 4, even if it is not so constrained to stats as in previous Fallout games. I've read tons of complaints about the new system, that usually clash with my personal impressions. When I play the game I sincerely am full of awe for almost every aspect (except the lack of the ones underlined in my sign), while if I read the various complaints in this forum I wonder what the hell of a game are the writers playing. Maybe I'm not the pure rpg player, and I try to understand the logic behind the transition between the old and the new mechanics.

oh, just to clarify MY wandering between topics... I'm so curious aboutn this game I have very often, even during my working time, a page opened, and give a quick read of the topics mainly here in general. I'm not trying to dismiss any negative comment. You missed some of my topics on the road, dude. I have written some questions and critics about F4, just because I'm really passionate of Bethesda Fallout and Elder Scrolls game franchises.

@ Bleak - Now i dont want a war of words but your posts can come of a bit dikeish and all most like "God Of Fallout Is Speaking" which is maybe why people aint reading all you write or taking anything you say in, just a suggestion but you perhaps need to make your post more user friendly for want of a better description, i mean who of us wants to chat or listen to some-one who just called the majority of posters to the thread ignorant "NV Placebo effect? More like your-ignorance effect."

Just a suggestion dude and by all means completely ignore me!!

I specifically wrote this post to address Skill Checks. Maybe you didn't see it because I double posted?

No, they are a bit dikeish you are correct. But my hair almost fell off with the things I am reading here. You can linger on the tone of the post (which I won't deny that it matters, because, duh, impressions > facts), or read the wiki entries instead of reading a load of misinformation. But, hey, one will believe what he wants to believe in the end, so all the facts in the world will not change his opinion, isn't that the typical human being? At least I'd expect some people to have the decency to say "these features/characteristics didn't matter to me so I don't mind that they are gone" instead of claiming that they didn't exist at all in the first place.

Its funny that I as a big fan of previous skill system didnt even realize how big impact skills made in game, it shows how well integrated skills were in game, ironically how well it was integrated it was in game is reason why people dont realize its impact on game, other reasons are probably too fast leveling and the fact that with all the mods people spend a LOT of time with maxed character, some people spend houndreds of hours playing game which means they spend most this time maxed character that wasnt "changing" at all(like for example lock picking and hacking wasn't geting easier and easier).

Fair enough dude and you are so right about humans in general got to be the most single minded stubborn being ever to walk the earth!!

I see through the dikeish (Ha!) and read your post and to be fair it seems it stems from frustration not inherent dikeishness.

My opinion on the matter is i liked the old system it was great but on the counter i love the new system its is also great regardless of the Fallout title i treat each games as its own entity. I loved Fallout 3 (first one for me) i loved NV but my love for NV did not detract from my love of FO3 as my love for FO4 detracts in no way from my love of the previous titles.

change is always a good thing it means the makers are thinking and are trying to give us something new when they know full well they prob could release the game exactly as either of the previous titles and make a fecking bomb but they didnt do that they took the risk and well you dont like it this time but the next risk they take maybe something you grow to love and the only way to know is to embrace the changes all of them and just play the game!!

This kind of discussion reminds me somehow when Diablo 3 was published. The ability trees were totally reworked in favour of runes and whatever. So many complaints!

It seems to me like the more role playing games evolve in the graphic-physics compartment (the more they evolve towards a certain grade of realistic style) the less they rely on numbers/stats/constraints. I really wonder why.

1.Yes.

2. No

3. Maybe

4. Sarcastic

I am guessing alizarin went with option #4.