Ok so ideas for this topic have been thrown out there here and there but I want to see some in depth and real possabilities, or if people even want to see multiple playable races. If you have an idea try to include physical characteistics and how each race will have unique ways of interaction with the world. Also advantages/disadvantges each race would have.

I'm gunna have to say no on this one.
Super mutants should be dying off, and there's not enough of em to have a viable race,IMO.
Ghouls are the only possibility I can honestly see working, but even then it's a stretch.

Fallout is about the struggle of MAN, and even though ghouls are all originally human..... They aren't anymore.

Im against different races in Fallout, but I'm sure there's going to be someone that will tell me I'm wrong.

Nha I feel you. Its something Id kind of like to see but but mabey its just because I liked Skyrim so much. It wouldnt work as well in Fallout

No, it really wouldn't.
People in the wastes aren't very tolerant to their own species, let alone ghouls.
You'd be getting shot at around every corner.

I'd say yes to this only if the races were not plenty (2 or 3 would well suffice), and that that choice meant actual substantial difference in how the player needs to approach the game - what I mean by that is that the choice of race permanently opens and closes certain doors and possibilities to the point that the experience actually feels different and forces a different approach. Otherwise, if the choice makes no difference, I see no real point to have them.

^ This

Not to sound like a Bethesda basher, but I say no, knowing how Todd & Co handles the entire interaction stuff.

"Oh hey mr. Ghoul, would you like to help us slaughter these ugly non-humans namely ghouls? We hate all ghouls and doesnt matter if they are civilized or not"
"I am a ghoul too you know"
"Naaaah, there'll be some caps for you"
"Okay"

As seen in Skyrim, it seems that useless stuff such as guards recognizing your armor is more important than Stormcloaks recognizing you are an High Elf (they are not even suspicious if you are about to join them for christ sake).

Yes, I would love playable races, but there can't be as many as TES has and they have to follow the lore.
And again, I don't think that the entire game would have to be rewritten 3 times over for each race.
All it needs is somewhat good amount of unique dialogue and small references to what you are.
A shop keeper might change his intro dialogue to "Don't get many ghouls around here, but my shop is open for everyone." And the rest of his dialogue functions the same way as it would if you were a human.

I think the ideal three would be Human, Ghoul and Trog.

The whole game doesn't need to be rewritten for races to have a clear distinction (both gameplaywise and storywise), though. I know I wouldn't be satisfied if the only thing you get from the choice is few lines from NPC's and couple negligably minor statistical differences (just like in Skyrim - NPC's call you a cat a plenty when you play a khajiit and you have the racial powers which don't really count for [censored], and that's all. It simply doesn't matter to the game what race you choose).

NPC acknowledgement needs to come with the package, that for sure. But if that's all there is in practice (looking at how differently the races in Fallout function), then what's the point?

That's what I meant with "staying true to lore".
Ghouls have complete and total radiation immunity.
They gain something Trogs and Humans don't, bonuses from radiation.
All irradiated areas are cakewalk for ghoul characters, while hell for Trogs and Humans.

So they need to fit the lore. Lore>Balance in this matter.
Not balance of the overall game, that needs to still be balanced.
But that; Not all races have to be equally good.

Ghouls get more knockdown chance, less health, can't wear Heavy Armor or Heavy Weapons, get less carry weight and are -10% in running speed.

If playable races are introduced it CANNOT be designed like TES is designed.
Each race have their strengths and weaknesses.
The good thing about humans is that they have the greatest variety of playstyles.
Where as a Ghoul player can use Melee and try to be a tank but would never be as good as a Trog is. (Humans are also inferior to Trogs in terms of Tank Builds.)

Sadly I think Bethesda are too scared of this.
They're too scared that players choose to play as a Trog and then get mad that their sneak isn't good or that they get weaknesses in the day light and get worse prices from some shops.
I mean, look at Oblivion with racial design in terms of gameplay and then look at Skyrim.
It's obvious they are too scared of alienating people who aren't used to AnC.

[edit]

As to the dialogue, say there are 12 NPC's with names in a minor settlement. 3 of these have problems with ghouls and 2 of these have problems with Trogs. The shopkeeper for hunting supplies had a bad run in with a Trog once and will now sneer at you if you are a trog, he will greet you differently and his prices will be slightly higher.

This is a minor racial influence.
There doesn't have to be major racial influences for every character.

Now, there is on the other hand the brothel, a ghoul once purchased their services and ended up stabbing one of the girls and fleeing the settlement.
The owner will have a lot of dialogue against you if you are a ghoul.
The girls and boys who sell themselves will act scared or bigoted of you.
And the guards for the brothel will follow you around until you leave the place, all the whle giving you a lot of bigoted comments.
You can ask about the incident as any race and complete the quest as any race, if you complete it as a ghoul the brothel will give more positive comments but the gals and boys will still not want to sell themselves to you.

That is a major racial influence.
One where you are completely excluded from an activity where there is a lot of racial defined dialogue.

The three named NPC's who have problems with Ghouls are in this brothel.
The rest of the town won't really have much different dialogue in comparison to a human player character.
The only change from them will be that once you ask "What services are there in Radicane?" they'll mention that "Maybe you shouldn't go to the brothel, they don't like ghouls since the last incident."

The major influences doesn't have to fill the wasteland but they should be like 5 in total.
Should be one major racial influence for each settlement, outpost, town and city.
And a handful of minor influences.

I think that would be enough to make things interesting.
It's not too much and it's not too little.

I like the idea of different races. It would add variety to the game. In fallout tactics and fallout brotherhood of steel you could be differend race too.

I have few ideas for differend races and their modifications to gameplay:
Humans:They get +2 to skill point gain.
Super mutants: Their strengt and endurance modifications would be 4x the normal.(If 1 strenght would give normally +25kg carrying weight capacity, supermutant would get +100kg carry weight capacity. and if one point of endurance would give 20 health at start, super mutant would get 80 health per endurance point.)
Mirelurk kings(or queens):+Water Breathing(you can breath underwater normally), Sonic attack(it would do 10 damage as in fallout 3 and ignores armour and cripples head easily.)
Ghoul: You regenerate health in radiation, You are immune to radiation poisoning, Endurance would give you two times more health than it would normally give.

We already have enough races, 3 to be exact.
You can be; Caucasion, African American, or Hispanic.
A very diverse line up if you ask me.

How the hell do Humans get +2 skill point gain? Most ghouls have been alive for a very long time, some since the Great War itself, if anything they should get +5 skill points while humans get no bonus at all to it.
And how the hell do Ghouls get more Endurance? They're walking rotten corpses that retained their sentience. If anything they should get less health but more poison resistance.

This comes up alot. I am against it.

If they had something where you could become a ghoul. People wouls want a way to turn human again. That would svck and pretty much break canon. Same with being able to become super mutant.

Even if they didn't have a means to become human again, the people of the game would should respond you your change. I just can't see that being done well. Not to mention become a Super Mutant would require yet another FEV lab that breaks canon.

Starting out as a mutant, would be different. As long as there is no becoming human option in the game. My main reason why I am against playing as a mutant from the start. I doubt it would be done right. I don't want all the people to respond to me as a mutant, as if I was just another human.

in this game it would be hard to intergrate other races from a lore and gameplay standpoint how would special affect you what perks would be available how at what rate would skills be gained mutants less ghouls more? tes has this already and has had time to tune it although that would be debatable bringing new races could cause problems and i'm sure devs are hesitant to the idea i'm sure it could work but how well?

Yeah I don't think that there should "ever" be an option to mutate during the game process to something as different as a ghoul or super mutant.
Cause imagine all the dialogue that had to be changed.
This really is something that needs the entire world to be rewritten.
I mean, I can't just go to my regular general store and not have the shop keeper ask what happened to me.
Every single dialogue would need to be changed for this.
That if you talked to Peter North when you was a human then he "has to" notice and comment on becoming a ghoul.

So no, no mutations during the game process, only start out as a mutant so that the dialogue in the game can be designed a specific way.
I don't think any major characterization change should be made.
Hell, that's one reason I want Power Armor out of the franchise.
I mean, here stands a brahmin farmer just minding his own business when an exoskeleton walks up to him and asks "What's up?"
The reaction can't be "Oh hi there, just minding the brahmin."
No, the reaction should be: @_@'

Well that can be solved. New Vegas has the disguising feature, so you can dress as an NCR or Legion and not be in those factions and still have people react to you as if you were. So they could make it so if you are in Power Armour. People would just run away from you. Can also make it so while wearing the helmet, people wouldn't know who you are. So going back to the same merchant, you always go to, he wouldn't know that its you.

Or they can add a speech option along the lines of "Stare down the guy" then the guy wets is pants. They had that of one guy in Fallout Tactics.

This wouldn't really work for a Ghouls or Super Mutant. Most people would shoot at you on sight. Few people would even talk to you. The game would be stupid if pretty much everyone treated you as if you were just another human.

Well, stating the obvious here, my stance is a pretty firm "no" - for one, I don't trust Bethesda to be bold (or capable) enough to make it worth it, and secondly, I still keep hold of the notion that Fallout is about humanity facing the horrible and sometimes odd results of its own errors. But as I am a gameplaymechanic-enthusiast type of guy, I do think it also depends on the implementation. How different can the experience be made with one race over the others.

If ghouls are immune to radiation, there needs to be enough of highly irradiated areas for the choice to be a ghoul to give a firm benefit;
if trogs prefer darkness over lit areas, there needs to be enough areas that are dark enough for trogs (assuming they see better in the dark) to really benefit from their light impairment which in turn should cause them vision disadvantages when walking in broad cloudless daylight or other highly lit places;
And so on, and so forth, relatively for every race and feature put there. And more over how the gameplay is affected by these things.

There are a lot of complex matters that, in my opinion, need to be taken into account when creating a meaningful implementation of choosable races. It's not as simple as saying X has feature Y which races Z and A do not have. That's only the premise.

Dude, no.
Ghouls would not be shot on sight.
It's been 204+ years, it's time to move past the ghoul bigotry, it's no longer interesting.
There should of course be those that don't like ghouls but shot on sight? That's ridiculous for how long ghouls have been in the world since the Great War.
So no, not "everyone" would treat you as just another human.
But why would the majority treat you that much different?

A shop keeper is a shop keeper, why would he turn away a ghoul? His dialogue could remain the same as with a human PC, maybe just a small difference in the first intro dialogue but nothing more is really needed.
Let's take Jeannie May, she runs a motel, in the first dialogue you get with her she'd go like "Oh my, a ghoul? Hope you aren't from REPCONN." Then you can ask "What do you have against REPCONN?" "Well, a ghoul group moved in there recently and their ferals have been running wild the past week and causing trouble, you can ask Manny or Boone up at the Dino about it if you want to know more."
After that you can return to the usual dialogue, and when asked to rent a room she'll go "Of course you can have it, but if you leave a stink you have to pay extra."
And that's it.
Nothing more is needed really.
She shows a little ignorance, but nothing else, no KOS, no "Oh HEEELL NO! NO GHOULS IN *MY* MOTEL!!"
Just a few extra lines of dialogue.

Let's take Sunny Smiles, her intro dialogue would be "So you're that ghoul that Doc saved huh? Well I'm Sunny." then when asked if she could help you with the tutorial she'd jokingly go "I hope you can keep up with me, then again, maybe ghouls are faster than humans?"
After that, there's nothing more needed.


Ringo, he wouldn't even aim the gun at you since he knows that the PG's have no ghouls and just introduce himself as default without that hostile part.

Victor would make a small comment on that you are a zombie.

Joe Cobb would in the intro dialogue ask what a ghoul wants from him and then return to the usual dialogue.

Easy Pete wouldn't even comment on that you are a ghoul.


Some NPC's don't even need to comment that you are a ghoul.
And most NPC's only additional dialogue is the intro dialogue.
Only some NPC's will have longer dialogue's.

I don't get why the dialogue would need to be so heavily modified for a ghoul.
For a super mutant I can understand, but not for a ghoul.
They have become integrated into society already, most people live and let live with them already.

KOS? That's ridiculous and should never be used against ghouls again (Unless it's Barnaky), maybe against other mutants, but not against ghouls.
It's time to put this bigotry behind us, accept ghouls into society and focus on being bigoted against other mutants for a while.

[edit]

UnDeCaf.

I don't think that the game needs to have tons of irradiated areas just for Ghouls.
It can have a moderate amount of places.
"But what about their regen and bonus effects gained from radiation?"
Well, now there is a reason to carry around irradiated food.
Ghouls could irradiate food and water at radiated sources and carry these things around to get bonuses outside of irradiated areas so it could still be viable.
As to Trogs enhanced vision in the dark, we don't necessarily need a lot of dark inside places, the ourdoors get dark at night.

I don't really care about the gameplay balance in that sense.
For me, it doesn't matter if there are only 6 irradiated areas in the game. I don't pick a ghoul so I can get lots of bonuses from radiation, I pick a ghoul to roleplay.
You might feel different but for me it doesn't matter if a Lacerta were to get the best benefit out of gameplay over Wastelanders, Trogs, Super Mutants, Nightkin, Sandmen and Ghouls.
I'd play all of them anyway for roleplaying reasons.
If a race is inferior to the rest in terms of the gameplay due to their lore then let them be inferior, if a player wants a superior race in terms of gameplay then let them pick the superior race.
I'll roleplay with the crappy races as well, just like how I roleplay with crappy humans in FNV. (Like the previous character I had, he only used pistols, and pistols are inferior to rifles, yet I used them becuase it fit the role I played as.)

So if there was a race that were as strong as Super Mutants, as agile as Lacertas, as long lived as Ghouls, as incredible with regeneration as Ghouls and Lacertas and as good as Trogs with their night time vision I still wouldn't play it over and over again.
I'd want to try out the other races too, to see just how different their gameplay is.
And hell, it'd put some perspective on it too, to see just how vulnerable or strong some races are from one another in the setting of the game.

Not tons, no. But enough to make a difference. For a schoolbook example: Consider a situation where there are 2 paths to the destination. One is long and filled with dangers, the other is much shorter with less dangers but contains lethal doses of radiation throughout. A ghoul would be at an advantage here, over the other races.
Another is a dark cave, a Trog would be able to see without lightsources whereas human would need a torch which would ruin his sneak attempts and still only give enough light to only see fairly close so no sniping either.

That's just from on top of my hat, but it's about systems interaction with the level design. To give one race an unreachable advantage over the others relative to the situation - not all over the place, but in certain key points and amounts enough to keep the feel of playing a different character.


Yeah, well I do feel differently -- I feel it's really bad design if you can - as intentional design - categorize good and bad choices, "here are the races that are best to play with -- and here are the bad ones". Who would want to pick the bad ones? I don't pick races to get their benefits, I pick them to get a differing gameplay experience. And while the races should be different, they all need to be equally viable choices in getting through the game; and the more the game recognizes that choice and equally awards and punishes it, the better the experience -- just as every skillbuild (in the perfect situation where you need to specialize and there are no useless skills) should be equally viable, but in different ways (a diplomat build can't fight for [censored], and fighter build can't talk for [censored], etc).


See, this is what I don't understand. Putting a super-everythingman as a choice of character to give perspective to the inferior ones -- that only nullifies the other races as choices as they'd be inherently inferior, and make picking them feel more like selfgimping than an actual choice -- it eats the interest from it as there's no weighing of possibilities, but just the choice between viable for everything and viable for few things. Isn't it the difficultysliders job to increase and decrease the challenge, and the rulesystems to provide variety and boundaries in fair sense?

1. Well sure, I wouldn't be against it, just as long as dungeons in the game aren't boiled down to three categories: Trog friendly, Ghoul friendly and Wastelander friendly, and every third dungeon has radiation in it.

2. A)) Those who want to roleplay?
B )) I don't agree with that, I think there should be things that are less viable in an RPG, that's how the world works, sometimes, what you're skilled at, doesn't mean crap in the environment you're in. I might be decent at drawing but I'm going to be [censored] in warfare. I choose to focus on a skill that is completely redundent in a lot of situations. I want that in an RPG as well, if a player doesn't want to use less viable skills or choose a less viable race then that player can choose not to, but when that moment comes up for that skill or race to get it's 15 minutes in the spotlight the player will be screwed as (s)he didn't pick that skill or race. Some stats, skills, traits, perks and races are more viable than others, they have more uses in the game than others do, but for players that chose that less viable skill they will have a moment of sunshine whereas players who didn't choose it won't.

I know it comes down to that it's a game, and some might feel it should be balanced and everything should be just as viable.
But I have a different perspective on RPG's as free as Fallout. I think less valid skills would be great.
Hell I think Big Guns should come back, and for all explosives weapons that are projectile or thrown to be split into the other groups and then solely have Explosion as a skill for disarming or arming explosives to blow things up. This includes mines. You can also craft your own explosives but that doesn't mean you know how to wield a Rocket Launcher.

3. No no no no, you misunderstood me completely. That last sentence was not meant for that hypothetical super race, I meant it for the other races, that it would put perspective on how a ghoul's life would be in the wasteland, how it differs from a Trogs or a Lacerta. It would put perspective on how X's life is like in the wasteland, of just how much troubles they have and how many benefits their mutation gave them. It was not about the hypothetical god race.

A place that hit hard in the war would be a place where the option to play a ghoul would be viable were ghouls might even be the norm, say NYC or as an option for hardcoe mode.

Super mutants? i dont know about that leaning to no but would have to be one of the smart ones. What happens if a human and a ghoul have a kid? is the ghoul's dna changed? what other humaniods/former human type can there be in other areas of the us and the world? swamps? moors? jungles? what other genetic experiments where going on in the us, canada, europe, mexico and china/korea/japan?

To me only ghouls would be the only option....

what about this:

you have a crazed scientist (ghoul or human) that are forcibly turning humans into ghouls, and your character just happens to be one. The Dweller, the Courier and the Ghoul?

Of course not, but clever level design can make miracles. And it's not just about dungeons, but also about accessibility and being denied in general -- e.g. free and hospitable access granted for ghouls, access at a cost for trogs, no access for human; mix and match and use different premises from settlements to equipement to environment; nothing that cuts off fundamental needs to get through the game, but which offers different content and bonuses accordingly.


A. You'd actually want to roleplay a character that is bad or incapable of doing things? That's fine, the system allows for that even if the races were balanced towards each other.

B. That's pretty much what I'm saying. There are things that are not viable. Like with the example of diplomat vs figher (and a generalist build). What I mean by viability - in the case of races - is that all should viable means to get through the game, but in a different manners. That the game provides situations where you notice that your choice of race is not viable, so you need to find other solutions. If you specifically want to make a character not adept at the things you focus on when you play, you make such character. The rules bend for that. But the rules should not specifically offer a bad choice in this regard without telling the player that you're now making a bad choice -- and if it did that, it'd be horrible design. If a choice is bad, it should come from the player, not from the game and it's rulesystem.

Every race should face challenges and obstacles against which that specific race would not be viable, or be barely viable. What you're suggesting, is, how it sounds to me, offering a bad choice from the beginning, a choice only suited for those who like to make bad choices but a non-viable choice for the others. It's different than liking to play this or that race, because it's an irreversible choice made in the beginning. If it was about separate difficulty setting, or something else that was more general and less specific, like a gimp-mode or something, I'd say OK, but races are something that are more inherently tied to the experience, and are, like I said, irreversible unlike difficultysettings.

In the end, the overall viability boils down to your skillbuild, but if there were to be choosable races (that matter), each should offer advantages and disadvantages over the others in a way that makes experience equally enjoyable and passable, yet different and distinct for the others (up to a satisfying degree).


Ok, that difference is what I have been trying to put out. Not specifically in terms of hardships in wasteland wellfare, but in gameplayterms.

But I still don't see how adding a subichce would really benefit the game other than pissing on the others as choices.

Fine than, if I get to play a different race in the next Fallout I better get to be an Orc.


Oooh yeah.

(I'll reply to the rest later, I'm busy right now)

The super race was just a hypothetical example of how I would not play as it over and over if it was in the game cause I don't play to get the best benefits but to roleplay.
I never ever meant that they should add a super race, it was just a hypthetical example to flesh out my point of how I would not abuse races cause of their benefits.