YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
:celebration:

To further support what perilisk said, I also found the "curve" in the previous games to be a bit overly "steep". There should be a noticable character development over the course of the game (it's not much fun when you can't "improve"), but the extent of that improvement turned out to be enormous. Not only did your skills and attributes rise from 20-30 for your majors up to 100 (between a 3:1 and a 5:1 improvement), you typically had substantially better equipment as well. In effect, a 5:1 to 20:1 increase in combat ability made it difficult to produce "beatable" adversaries at low level, yet challenging ones at high level, without using some blatantly obvious and obnoxious mechanics such as excessive levelling and scaling.

"Bosses" make good "milestones", to demonstrate how far you've come, and as such should either be "unscaled" or scaled at a reduced rate from the player. There could also be a few "rival" characters who, like the player character, are improving as the game goes on, and therefore are somewhat scaled. The vast majority of the encounters and loot should be from "levelled lists" (as in all previous TES games), where new, "better" entries become more common as you progress, but aren't "absent" before that, nor should they "replace" the lower-level creatures on the list from before.

It's possible to place a "levelled list" inside of another levelled list, in the TES construction set. By making ONE of the entries in the list a link to the next higher list (which would also contain one entry for a list still higher, etc.), there would always be a possibility of finding or encountering something that's one step above normal, and a very SLIM chance of something still higher on the chain. The uncertainty is what keeps the game interesting for many of us, and I found the "flat" loot and opponent lists in OB boring and tedious. There was NEVER anything "interesting", until you reached the next level, then it was ALL the same slightly higher level of "interesting", which quickly became "the norm" and once again boring.

I like this. :disguise:

I like the idea of removing player leveling.

I liked Fallout 3 style, where when you level up you see harder creature more often and the lower level ones less often.

How about a % scale for skills, almost exactly like the 1-100 system right now, and weapon / spell damage is [player % mastery] / [enemy % mastery], so damage (perhaps even chance of success) becomes more than just personal knowledge and attribute comparison. I am thinking this because I have often seen 2 great combatants (not swordplay) go at it, and to anyone who does not know what is going it looks like child's play, but there is actually a huge amount of skill involved in both parties. However a master is clearly visible when pitted against a novice. Understanding fighting fundamentals can do just as much to protect you from harm as it can to help inflict harm.

Then add Attributes and Skills that have natural caps from 75-125, about, that are dependant on the selected skills. So using the MW skill selection: A specialized major (Combat Spec, Axe, Str.) would have a natural skill cap of 125, and the natural Attribute cap starts at 75. If Strength skills are selected as majors, the natural Attribute cap would grow to about 125. If 2 majors, or 1 major and 2 minors, then it would naturally cap at about 100.
-Now I am saying 'natural cap', and 'about 75-125' because major / minor / misc selection mostly determines how fast the related attribute grows. So if all the Strength skill were misc, strength would still increase, but slowly. If MW training were brought back, where lv 100 skills could still be trained, and maybe even add Attribute training, 75-125 would still be a naturally attained limit while bigger numbers could occur with expensive training.


If something like this could be set up then a generic PC level system could be dropped, and % mastery only be applicable to the skill sets. As for NPC's, instead of choosing a 'level scale', random bandits could repopulate with skill % varying on a traditional bell curve. Even in Mercantile. And general 'Danger' and 'Safe' zones voiced throughout the region, so the whole world is not some DF crapshoot. And then throw this along side static enemies.

Idk, I may have gone overboard with this idea, but its the only thing I can think of to eliminate a general character level.

Im going to touch on a few idea's some of the users have said. The first being taking leveling out all together and i think this is a magnificent idea. I would take a fallout 3 approach and have you add points to the stats you value most at the beginning of the game and from there on out you would be able to upgrade those stats by completiing quest or getting items that upgrade certain stats (boggle heads fo3) As far as your specialties go they would upgrade the same journyman, expert etc.

There was also an idea for not having spells do projected damage, i once again agree with this. Your spells should go off of your stats. Im also a big believe that you should not be able to create your own weapons and armor. This ruins the game greatly because no matter how much you dungeon dive you'll always be able to make a weapon that can kill in one hit. If they would create epic items that live up to the word epic the game wouldnt be ruined with easily created juggernaut items.

I'd prefer to see no levelling at all - which is to say, you'd be able to improve your skills and as you did so your attributes would naturally increase. I'd like to see scaling removed entirely.
If I walk in to the Dark Fortress of Doom at the beginning of the game, I should fully expect to be destroyed.

Also, this.

There should not be an enemy leveling system in place. It's what Tiranasta said: "If I walk in to the Dark Fortress of Doom at the beginning of the game, I should fully expect to be destroyed". That makes the game -feel- realistic. It also makes leveling for the PC necessary. No enemy-leveling also resolves the problem of a badly composed custom class. I had several times a character would level-up and be underpowered or vice versa. I didn't like that cause it forced me to carefully calculate my stats and lay out a leveling-tactic in order to be able to play the game without e.g. spending 20 health potions defeating some monster or acquiring a complete set of armor enchanted with chameleon.

Leveling? I dont think there should be leveling aside from the PC really You grow with the world not the world grow with you.As you get stronger the low level enemies get weaker.Even at the beginning there should still be creatures that can take your head off in single sweep.Treasures should be hand placed. not set to a level list.. if a treasure only has 15 gold well your only getting 15 gold. The ability to find High level stuff like daedric armor at the very start but only if you got the guts and skill to take it and the gold to keep it in shape.

Good thinking, kenchi. Yes, that would indeed be an improvement. That way, instead of an artificial rather brusque milestone, the 'milestone' would be spun along the way, and not suddenly gaining fast at level 20, for instance. I know what you mean (stopwatch); I thought it could be smoothed over by maybe making more groups, so it doesn't stand out as much, but your idea is better. Such a system would really work, get rid of all major problems of the current OB's one, and wouldn't be too complex to implement them.

About your 'high level' regions...well, I'm a bit less enthusiastic. It should be done very carefully (if...). Maybe at 'cave' level or smallish region where a certain type of opponent lives, or something. But I don't like the idea of complete area's where, for no apparent reason, ALL critters and beings are suddenly uberpowerful and you can't show your face in half the world. Not much of an open world, then, would it? And it wouldn't make much sense neither.

As for those who want to get rid of levelling altogether, because it's 'natural' to progress and become all-powerful: it may seem like reaching God-mode is fun - and it actually is, for a while - but then it really starts to get annoyingly boring really fast. Besides, it isn't necessarily *that* obvious that the world 'does not revolve around you' in an RPG. It sort of does, actually. Getting rid of the levelling system altogether would make you get 'visibly' stronger, yes, but ofcourse, the annoyance comes forth *because* we know all creatures level in the same amount with you. If implemented differently, as I and some have already suggested, it would get rid of the drawbacks, while leaving it enjoyable for a far longer time. Besides....seen from the perspective of your character; why *should* YOU be the only one that improves himself? Other opponents can improve themselves as well, after all, so why would it be more 'natural' that you're the only one improving? A level system does just that, in a rather feasible way (AI ain't THAT advanced they can really act/improve as (well as) a player, after all). The levelling in OB was done badly, true, but if implemented well, instead of looking at it like the opponents level with you (this is meta-knowledge, after all, it's not from the viewpoint of a (your) character) but rather that they too, are improving. This also makes sense, instead of just claiming the only logical things is that you increase while the rest grows increasingly weaker and weaker.


And also;while I'm all for using logic and a rationale in every game, a game still must be fun, in the first place. I'm all for making things more 'real'; reality is a great good, but only to the point where illogic and contradictions are avoided, NOT to the point we get a second 'real life' kinda environment. I play an RPG not so I can have a repeat of every day life, after all. I want to have fun doing things that I can't do in real life, as long as it remains fun. This means; no stupid silliness, but also no boring reality stuff. That's why I only partially accept the complaint about there being too many forts and caves and robbers near the city. Ok, yes, maybe in OB it was a bit exaggerated, but really, I DO NOT want an actual 'real' representation of our world (not even in a medieval setting). Here, the nearest cave is like 30 km away. I don't want the world of OB (or the next one) to have only a handful of ruins and forts, and a cave or two in a radius of 50 km, nomatter HOW realistically that may be.

Looking for an explanation to put behind the idea? Generally high level areas would be places where gaurds, watches, and citizens would not have a need to regulate. The closer you are to a city, generally the more the guards care about that large fleet of goblins. This shouldn't restrict having corrupt guards or hidden caves housing some big enemies. Not every wilderness cave should be fatal and not a not every joe schmoe city bandit should be a pansy, but for gameplay and world set-up generally leveled zones could be effective. Also, this does not necessarily mean bigger cities will have weaker wild life than villages. Sometimes villages know more how to take care of danger than a city slicker.

Absolutely hated Oblivion's leveling system, So no leveling at all please. I want to run into monster's and be completely terrified of them because they could kill me in a split second! And I also want the same to happen to little monsters when i get super tough they should be scared and go running home to their mommy.

In the Hunters mod for Oblivion, lower leveled animals would run away from you, it was alot more realistic than everything jsut wanting to kill you.

There were times when I needed a wolf pelt for a quest and the little buggers kept running away when I ran at them with a sword. Like it should be.

That is actually what I meant, just didn't explain myself very well. I don't want regions ala WoW, but rather caves and smaller areas that are higher leveled, some of which require specific skills to enter or make it through, where my mastery of skills can be tested. And at the end of these caves and such, there would be non-leveled artifacts that are fantastic, well worth the amount of time and effort of leveling and pursuing the object. The world itself should be open and allow for the player to explore, otherwise the open-endedness fades, and it even becomes difficult to find the extra content that I'm talking about. This higher level content would extend gameplay, as, if you were required to have, say, a lvl 95 destruction skill to enter the area, then non-magic characters who would like to round out their skills (after the MQ is done and all of the most desired equipment is obtained, for example) can raise their skill in the schools of magic to enter the area, or the player can start a new magic character, so it also adds to replay value. Having higher level content, especially of skill-specific emphasis, gives the player extra challenge and equipment to look forward to that isn't just some random leveled loot dropped by a bandit or daedra.

It would also be great if the equipment that you got in these places was the BEST you could get in the game for your class (meta-classes included), hands down. There should also be quests for people who enjoy alchemy, being an armorer, etc., where they can obtain high level recipes or schematics to make awesome things at high level.

?

What 'd you mean, 'not regulate'? What has that to do with it? I and the other posters were talking about high level areas, where, as the name suggest, opponents would be high level. Those opponents could be critters or bandits, so what does that have to do with guards and citizens not needing to regulate? We were not discussing the *amount* of opponents/critters (well, at least not in that paragraph), but the fact you would have whole region's where all naughty beings would be at high level, being able to destroy you in the blink of an eye if you're low level. 'Not every cave should be fatal' should be rather reversed into "not every cave should mean you're pwned". I like Kenchi's ideas about this (he clarified it above) much better and more reasonable. If the 'high level' regions and caves are few and sparse, preferably with the rationale of getting high value objects, or where a certain (sub)race of people or clan lives that is 'known for their ferocity' or some such, it would still make sense, and the world would still be largely open - while at the same time, the benefits where Kenchi spoke of would be possible.

If you're talking about large area's where everyone is at a much higher level (even if it are different areas or levels), it still means that, if you're just starting, a large area is just unavailable to you, which makes the whole concept of exploring an 'open world' futile, because in practise, the world wouldn't be open anymore. Also, whether it's near villages or cities (I don't understand what that has to do with it, frankly), the fact remains that there would be huge parts of the world, where, for no apparent reason, all the wolves, panthers, lions, bandits and other critters and opponents would somehow be 5 times or more as strong than their counterparts in the neighbouring area's. That doesn't make sense. To put it simple: there is no rational reason why all squirrels in one forest would be 10 times weaker or stronger than of the next forest. In fact, it would lead to some absurd situation where the poster about that frog spoke about; basically, you would be able to kill of a pack of wolves in one area, and then be totally pwned by a rat in the next 'higher level' area. This doesn't makke sense, because, whatever rat there is, it wouldn't still be as strong as a pack of wolves.

There must be some rationale for why a certain part of the world is far more dangerous than others, and you can't do that if you're 'high levelling' large areas where all critters and bandits suddenly, somehow, are a tenfold stronger than their neighbours. Therefore, the areas where it is high level should be smallish or contained (like in certain caves) - so the world at large remains open for everyone - and have a real basis for why it's far more dangerous there.


I think the combination of what I and Kenchi said make a good and practical way to solve the existing problems with the OB system.

I generally like the way Morrowind went about it, I never found fault with it. The only thing I hate (with TES and FO3) is that you're practically forced to use equipment your character wouldn't use. Trying to be an Assassin in Glass Armour is daft when the Leather suff is more practical (visually, and wieght wise). Now I'm not saying Leather should provide as much protection as Glass, but their should be tradeoffs which make both viable options at every level. It's the same with Weapons, in FO3 I loved the Laser Rifles and Pistols, but I had to upgrade to Plasma to remain effective. In Oblivion I really like Fine Steel, but it becomes useless. Please give the way equipment levels an overhaul as well as areas and enemies,

I'm kinda' with schnell on this one - zones.
If you're close to a city, town or major trade route, the baddies should be fewer(because of guards and peasants with sharpened sticks). And you wouldn't have to run that far for help. If you're really itching for a fight, picking one with the nearest guard-patrol should suffice. Not to say that the occasionally big baddie shouldn't show up once in a while.
Venture into the wilder lands, and you'll have a better chance of encountering things that will rip you apart unless you're good at what you do. As well as having nowhere to run for help.
And when you're really good, you can climb the highest mountain to do battle with a forgotten and vengeful god, or something.

In the "civilized" zones, there would be a much higher chance of (potensionally)non-violent encounters, while the "wild" zones would spawn all sorts(and all sorts of levels), and encounters on the the god-mountain would be uniformly high-lvl. Some encounters might even be so tough that one would have to think(shudder) to beat them..

I would like to have a donkey in TES5. And I would like the game to give me a reason to load it up with ten-foot poles, potions, alchemical kits and extra armory going in, and load it up with loot going out B)

It would be neat if there was some kind of reputation system where enemies would seek you out as you powered up. At the beginning when you're a nobody, the bandits would attack you normally and be at an acceptable bandit level. A level 50 character wouldn't be a normal bandit - he'd be off doing great and evil deeds. As you levelled up, some of these level 50 bandits would seek you out - kind of like the bounty hunters in fallout. But, when you made it that high, the lower level bandits would run away from you. As for other characters, a level 50 hero should be able to plough through a horde of zombies or skeletons etc without breaking a sweat, but the Liches should be a challenge. Non sentient enemies should never run away from you. A hungry bear will attack no matter how much glass you're wearing.

A reputation system exists in OB, it was just, for the most part, useless. I like the idea of other explorers seeking you out, ones that level at the same rate as you (so when they attack you, you aren't guarenteed to get smacked), but not just because of level. I would rather see explorers looking for artifacts just like the PC, and if you find them, they seek you out to take it from you. It could tie into a story with the artifacts, and it would also make sense that there is more than just you exploring the world.

On another note, with a scaled system like I mentioned above, much of the lower level loot will be like it was in OB, where it levels with you until you can get the really great artifacts at higher level. As many of us have said, this system svcked in the past, and could use some revamping. Personally, I like the idea that someone else said, where, instead of having different armor and weapon types (leather, elvin, daedric, and iron, steel, glass) appear out of nowhere at higher levels, make those armor types available at the beginning of the game, and make them so they have their own unique pros and cons. Leather is the classic garb of a thief, so there should be some bonus to sneak or something of that manner for the wearer, where the other armor types would not have that bonus but others instead. I think that (at least for the most part) skills should be the determining factor in the amount of defense the wearer receives from their armor. Blocking with a daedric shield should be much less effective if your block skill is low, but raising the skill raises the player's ability to mitigate damage. The damage from weapons should be the same, where it relies on your strength and skill in the weapon. This could give the leveling system some practical use, as choosing willpower over strength would increase your magic resistance and potency of spells, but would make your melee combat suffer. As long as they get rid of the bonus multipliers for core stats, this system would make sense.

Also, make players able to level on the spot, without seeking a bed. It's pointless, time-consuming, and makes no sense, as I don't meditate in my sleep.

That feels like all I said was totally ignored. <_<

I said it wasn't about the amount of critters and bandits around cities - I mean, sure, what the heck, make them less there than 'in the wild' as long as there's still enough going on. Point was, huge zones full of high levelled beings makes little sense, AND make it a much less 'open world', which has always been the main thing about TES games.

I agree with the donkey though. :laugh: In fact, I always thought the horses in OB should have had something (sadlebags?) to put *a lot* of stuff in.

I did not mean to criticize, I do like having generally level regions. Not leveled access, but a general above average opponent. You were talking about places being higher or lower level for no apparent reason. Guards and city safety can be that reason.
For example, in Syeda Neen (MW) your starter caves were full of lv 1 - lv 2 enemies. It would not make sense for a major imperial port town to allow actual threatening bandits, like lv 16-20, to exist that close to its boarders. Its frendly for the player, and its friendly for the MW world.

and what I mean by 'not regulate' is that there are some areas where people would just say, "Nope, not going in there, don't care about. Lets just move on". These regions of the map might tend towards higher level enemies, generally more powerful wild life. Then through in variations in caves along the lines of what kenchi said. I am not trying to replace your system, but it can be added to.

I see what you're saying...it's just supposed to be a possible explanation as to why some places would be filled with higher level enemies. It's a good start to some possible quest lines, but it needs to be thought out a little more. Wildlife doesn't really train as it were, so even in regions where a guard presence was very low, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for them to be much higher level than other wildlife (even in the small pockets of land which I think you are referring to). However, if there were some motivating force, say, hunters who are preying on certain animals and subsequently allowing for other animals to gain more resources and become much stronger, or maybe there is a particularly fierce bear/wolf/whatever which keeps the guard away from that area. Guard presence definitely needs to be taken into account if higher level areas are to make sense (if guards were in some powerful cult's lair, why would it still exist?). However, there must also be some sort of impetus behind wildlife, cults, what have you, to make them more powerful than other NPC's and wildlife of comparable class or origin.

I also thought of a new type of stealth skill that could lead to some pretty cool quests: assimilation. The skill accounts for the character's ability to successful convince NPC's that he/she is part of their faction, or that he/she lives or works at a location. Could obviously be very useful for a thief, and I think we can all think of a couple of quests where this skill could be showcased . This skill, however, would not work (or at least not always) on the high level factions that inhabit the areas that we have been talking about, so that someone with a high assimilate skill can't just get all the best gear in the game without much effort.

Bluff? Then the DF backstab for some wily cave clearing?

More civilized and well-traveled areas of Cyrodiil are going to have much tamer wildlife than others, because aggressive/dangerous beasts are going to be weeded out by all the patrols. On the other hand wilder areas with denser vegetation would logically have more aggressive and dangerous and exotic beasts.

Oblivion's map is pretty much perfect for this. You have the grassy, well-roaded paradise in the middle of the map where you set out. Branching out a little you'll find forests. Branching out even more you'll find rocky savannas, arctic areas, dense jungle, and highlands. OOO did great work with these - you learn which areas have which beasts, and some of them were definitely more dangerous.