That's http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/Gizmojunk/Hillsfar.gif not TES (or regular lock picking you see done in a locksmith's shop). You only need two tools for most simple locks. A tension wrench and a pick. Fallout 3 uses a screwdriver for a tension wrench (nutty, but it does).

YES! Of course. What other purpose is there for implementing a weapon skill in an RPG?
(Or a lock pick skill... If the PC does not have the skill to open the lock, then the game should never let the player inside, until the PC is able to open it.)

That was the lock pick problem in Oblivion... You could master the minigame and open the lock when the PC should not be able to.

Agreed.

If you know nothing about guns, you sure as hell aren't going to shoot well. A person that never fired a gun in their life isn't just going to be able to pick up a sniper rifle and snipe people in the head from a great distance. Hell they would be lucky to shoot a person a few yards a way. Sure they could be lucky but not lucky enough to do it over and over again.

well...



However, I must acknowledge that you have made good points. As such, I feel that the Fallout 3/New Vegas system should merge with the Skyrim system. In Skyrim, it is quite possible to pick a master lock even when you have a low lockpicking skill. This isn't realistic at all as no beginner should be able to pick the most difficult lock in the game. But when looking at the newer fallouts, just because you have a lockpicking skill of 75 shouldn't mean that you can pick all hard locks with ease. After all, when distributing points to skills, it signifies that you are learning more about that particular skill. If you are learning more, things should become easier. Perhaps, a system in which at 75, you can attempt to pick hard locks, but they prove to be difficult. As you increase the skill, the hard locks become easier to pick. As you get closer to 100, it becomes fractionally possible to pick a very hard lock, (such as your 5% or higher depending on how close you are to 100) and at 100, very hard locks are still hard to pick, but also somewhat doable.

There was also a problem with the Fallout 3 (and NV) method of thresholds. You had to have enough skill to even try (which is good with minigames), but having high skill still didn't mean you could open the lock. There was a videointerview while NV was in the developement where they presented lockpicking. In the chair were Josh Sawyer and Tess Treadwell, and the character had maxed out lockpicking (or at least high enough skill to attempt). Tess was having the controller and was asked to open a hard or very hard lock, and she couldn't, she broke a pin after a pin until she finally gave up and gave the controller to Josh, who opened the lock in about 5 seconds while talking to the interviewer at the same time.

And now we have Skyrim having that fixed again back to the Oblivion level so that you can open every lock in the game from the get go with ease regardless of characterskill (while people not good at the minigame definitely still stumble even with a high skill).

There is simply no way to implement a minigame that'd be fair for everyone and represent the characters ability accurately. And minigames, in essence, are but busywork - there are ofcourse people who don't mind, but one'd think that for the ones good at them, it's just frustrating having to repeat the same thing over and over again, while it can be frustrating to those too who are not good at the minigame ("My skill is maxed, why do I still struggle with medium locks?").

What if we have a hybrid of the TES and Fallout lockpicking?

There's a gun behind a VH locked door in an old bunker near the player start of the game that kills even BoS paladins at one hit, if you do Skyrim and Oblivions approach, this gun breaks the game as all it takes to pick locks in TES is timing. But if we use a mix of skill check (Which IS what is in place atm, not to the extent of F1 and 2 mind you, but it does determine if your player has the skill to pick the lock, ergo skill check) and the TES system, at 100 Lockpick you can pick it, but, and this is where the idea branches, it's either:

A. A universal atypical slit lock like on your frontdoor for all ingame locks.

or

B. Each door set has a unique UI. For example, office doors and suburban doors would have a standard doorlock, those rivety blast door things (see the sewer or military doors in F3 and NV) could have some sort of complex mechanical gizmo and gadgets lock that require an electronic lockpick.

I like B because it takes a step back into the old fallout pool and revives some gameplay, for example some of the doors wouldnt open without an electronic lockpick. I think the VE,E,A,H,VH system is effective, but it's basic. I think it'd be cool if we could expand on how this works. Take terminal hacking, fail to many? the terminal locks. Break the standard bobbypin? Lose a pin. For an ELP it could be that due to 200+ years of wear and tear, it's faulty, so if you fail to bypass a locks circuitry the lockpick backfires and zaps a lock level pending amount of HP shock damage.

Some people might whine it adds complexity, but considering how much video games these days babysit, I think kicking players in the crotch when they do something wrong is a good way to motivate the idea of failure having reprecussions and success bearing rewards.

Just to expand on my idea. Also Lockable Spring Bolt Doors are basically like the doors you have on toilets in your house they lock the handle but not the latch, so think of a credit card opening doors like in movies,

LPL (Lockpicking Level) CU (Chance Unlock) CB (Chance Breaking)

Electronic Lock Pick - Used on Electronic Locks, it's an easier way to unlock those hard electronic lock, the electronic lock pick are rare to come by and become dysfunctional after 2-3 locks

Door Jam's - Can be used to unlock Spring Bolt, Basic and Advance Tumble Locked Doors Only (Chance of Breaking or unlocking Lock with the Door Jam depends on the type of lock, skill level of that lock and you ability)

Drill - Can be used to unlock Spring Bolt, Basic and Advance Tumble and Dual locks, drills have a high chance of breaking locks at a low rank however become quite effect as you level increases, drills are really rare and do wear our and break. (Chance of Breaking or unlocking Lock the lock depends on the type of lock, skill level of that lock and you ability)

A very good way ~(Best way IMO), is some form of weighted percentages. The PC having '20' in lockpick skill, would usually have a 1 in 5 chance of opening the lock (per amount of time spent fiddling with it); While the PC with '80' in Lickpick is an expert, and would usually have a 4 out of 5 chance to open it (per amount of time spent on the lock). This does not preclude either from never opening it, or both opening it on the first try, (This is realistic BTW, just improbable for each). Consider that the locks are in unknown condition; An individual lock may be rusted shut and even the pro can't open it with picks; The novice's lock may have only 2 cylinders in it because it was taken apart and put back together decades (or centuries) ago; (Yeah, its metagaming), but it is possible to open a lock purely on blind luck. (I've had that happen myself ~when I was six years old, trying to open a combination lock on the pool shed in our back yard. I didn't spend all day; I didn't spend 5 minutes. It was locked tight, and I spun the dial a few times and pulled; And I never ~ever got the thing open again after I'd re-locked it).

Weighted percentages tilt the base odds in one way or another. If you have "hard, average, and easy" locks; Those could be weighted -25, +/-0, +25 (respectively), and the guy with 50 in lockpick (1 in 2 chance), would have a harder time opening the hard lock (1 in 4 chance), and an easier time with the easy lock (3 in 4 chance). The novice with 20 in lock pick could never open the hard locks (due to the -25 difficulty adjusting their chances to -5); But with easy locks, their chances are raised to nearly 1 in 2 per attempt.


Barring Weighted percentage... In the recent Fallout's and (presumably Skyrim) the menus are 3d models. A detailed 3d model of a lock (or various locks :goodjob:) could be used to advantage here. Consider if it were reverted to Oblivion's lockpick minigame, but in 3d. What if the the game checked the PC's skill at lockpicking and incrementally turned the lock (model) from Fallout's frontal view of the cylinder more and more (as skill increased) towards a ? view and making it a cutaway (with faded transparency) of the lock body ~in the way that Oblivion let you see the lock tumblers. If this was done... in practice it could play out that the PC/Player can attempt to pick any lock blind (and possibly succeed), but as the PC's skill in lock picking improves the player is presented with more and more of the lock's interior (reflecting the PC's accurate mental image of what's happening inside the lock when they move the pick).

That could actually work as a middleground of sorts -- especially with different models for different locks, and possibly even different set of tools required for different locks (to keep things fresh) -- if a minigame is something that needs to be in.

It doesn't quite fix the "fairness" issue (I like certain amount of randomness not of my doing in RPG's), or underline the PC's incompetence (rather than the players -- as there is almost always a pattern to be found and exploit with these little tasks, and in the end at 100 skill it does boil down to full player contribution again), but I think I could manage with it (reluctantly, as I've got a certain unwanted bias against minigames , but nonetheless) as the idea does sound intriguing.

If the choice is between Skyrim and Fallout 3/NV lockpicking systems, I pick the latter. Skyrim's is horrible, and simply not letting us pick the lock is an ample enough solution for me. However, a dice roll-esque version showing an animation of our character picking it in real time is what I want.

Yeah... But if the minigame is mandatory, I think that method makes it a lot more fair and reliant on the PC's skill knowledge.

~~ The example could work like this: PC skill would restricted the player to what the PC knows of locks, and give them same chances as the PC would have to open the lock with picks. As the PC's skill improves, the player is given more information about the lock; (Because the PC has a better idea of what's going on inside it when the picks move).

This shows what I mean... http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/Gizmojunk/lock4.gif

The Player would only see the face of the lock ~until the PC had enough skill with locks to reveal what's going on inside; (The player could still succeed at picking the lock blind, but so could the PC in the same situation).

Yeah. It would make it more "fair". If a minigame is mandatory (which I believe Bethesda believes it is).

Just to make sure if I understood correctly (it's a bit late here): You mean that, for a rough example, if a lock is at level 100 and the PC skill is at 20 the player sees 1 out of 5 thumblers (or whatever the mechanic), and through skilladvancement more thumblers open up at logical intervals with the eventual result of seeing them all -- and that there'd be a 1/5 chance for the PC to succeed at an automated attempt with equally increasing chance of success through skilladvancement (player and PC having the same chances)? Or, that the lock is wholly revealed at the given threshold until which point the player only sees the face -- as to present a harsher threshold more akin to how it is in FO3 and NV?

While I understand the hatred for Skyrim's ability to pick a lock at any level (regardless of it's level, whether it's easy or very hard), I think it can work to some practicality.

HOWEVER, what I think does need to be changed is the "stop time to pick this lock in the mini-game" sequence. You want to make lockpicking more challenging? Screw the whole "you must be [this level] to attempt the lock", and instead make the character pick the lock in real time.

Basically, your character stands next to the chest/door/whatever and the camera zooms in (similar to what happens during smithing in Skyrim), and a small little screen pops up with the lock. As you attempt to pick the lock, the world continues to go by in real time, meaning the longer you take here, the more likely you are to get hit while you're stuck in the lockpicking screen.

Alternatively, your lockpicking skill level could determine how "gentle" you are with lockpicks. A very low skill level will break on practically every first try, and you'll have a much higher chance of jamming the lock, making it essentially unopenable. The higher your skill level, the more gentle you are with picks (more tries per lockpick) and the less likely you are to jam the lock.

I didn't mean that exactly... originally I just meant that the angle and transparency of the lock would change (making it easier to see what was really happening inside). Its a simple task really, but not if you don't know what the inside of the lock looks like or where the tumblers might be.

** And for the purpose of game mechanics, various lock styles might have anti-picking features or odd design that could make it much more difficult (unless you knew about them; and could see what the PC knows about them).

While I do support the idea of realtime lockpicking, I think there are way too many cases where it being real time doesn't matter (as in isn't enough a restriction or a reason for cautiousness). Most of the locks would need to be set in heavily guarded areas, and still the skill would be rendered meaningless as not all lockpicking players would rely on stealth, but merely clean the area of hostiles and then pick away in soothing silence with all the time in the world.

The "more gentle" idea is, as far as I know, already in use in both Skyrim and New Vegas (though without the jamming possibility).



Oh. Got ya. Was think the long way, again.

The way it is in Skyrim isn't what I mean. Skyrim has it set up with a try once, second time it breaks formula. I mean that the lower your skill, it'll break on it's first try. The higher your skill level, the more likely you are to have more chances (I'd say three as the maximum for balancing reasons). The jamming system would make it difficult for people to try harder locks at lower levels, since it could be the same as it was in FO3/FONV (if you forced the lock, it was unaccessable if it didn't succeed; just take out the force lock mechanic). Reloading wouldn't do much good either.

My idea is basically this. You attempt a chest that's locked with a 100 skill level; you're at 20. As you attempt the lock, you have an 80% (give or take) chance of jamming the lock. As you raise your skill level, the jamming possibility decreases (though at 100 it can't be zero; maybe the least amount is a 5 or 10% chance of jamming the lock). Even if you reload, your chances of picking that lock, at that level, without jamming it again and again are basically one in a thousand. This could help stop players from attempting high level locks without the restriction of "so sorry, you're not bright enough to try this yet. Come back to me when your lockpicking is at 100" (since that breaks the immersion for some people). It'll be annoying to a lot of people, but stop people from being master lockpickers at level 1.

I'm not a big fan of mini-games. I don't have a problem with player skill being a factor, but I find that mini-games tend to exist in their own little world and I'd rather not be taken out of the game. I was happy with the Fallout 3 system, and I'm also fine with the Skyrim system, but I'd prefer something entirely different. In my opinion Thief and Thief 2 have the best system for lockpicking, it was simple but it didn't pause the game or take you away from where you were. For those unfamiliar with it, you had two lockpicks and each lock required you use them in a specific order. The lockpicking itself didn't require much in the way of skill, instead it relied on your stealth and sense of timing. The problem here wouldn't be whether or not you can get in, so much as your chance of succeeding without being caught.

Thief was not an RPG, but I think it's something that can be expanded to cover character skill nicely. One's skill level would increase the speed that you picked locks (with higher level locks having more steps), while perks could give you bonuses like "every success with a lockpick gives you two successes instead of one," and "you do not lose your successes if your lockpicking attempt is interrupted or ended."

In this system I think locks of any level should be accessible, but any lock level above your skill level would have a scaled chance of breaking your pick, and it would be much noisier.

Picking would have a chance of attracting attention, which is reduced by your sneaking ability. I also think developers should have an option of attaching a wandering monster type effect to locks so an especially long or noisy attempt could spawn an alert guard/robot/mutant/monster/et cetera nearby. Attached to this, I think there should be a crowbar-type item that lets you attempt a lock much faster, but also much noisier. If you attempt a lock with a crowbar, and the lock level is above your skill level, there's a chance of damaging the lock. This could raise the level of the lock, or it could prevent any further crowbar attempts, or it could ruin it entirely.

You'd give a random chance for jamming at a failed attempt (or did I misunderstand)? Would you, since there are the percentages, also give a random chance for succeeding (say, with those numbers - lock 100, skill 20 - 4% or so)? Just curious, the suggestion you have doesn't sound bad to me (for a minigame).



The problem - as I see it - with that, is that not every player relies on or cares about stealthiness, so the noise and attracting enemies is a non-issue for everyone not playing a stealthy character. Unless the noise, or the picking itself (to make the speed count), spawns new enemies appropriate to the value of what's behind the lid or door or whatever is being picked. Otherwise, from what I remember of the Thief games, it's a sound system -- for a minigame.

Basically if you attempt the lock and complete the attempt (like how in Skyrim or Fallout 3, when the lockpick stopped and twitched, indicating that wasn't right), you'd have a chance of snapping the lockpick and jamming it. As for successful chances, I'd only incorporate that if they're going to keep the force lock attempt. Otherwise finding the right spot to unlock the lock is blind luck or one hell of a level of skill.

Does that make a bit more sense?

I don;t like the idea of the lock jamming when your playing the minigame, my girlfriend svcks at them, love you hun if you do read this, but my point is, it should be worry free apart from loosing picklick.................Maybe only have it jam when picklocking on hardcoe mode.......Also how the hell do you jam a lock in real life apart from breaking the picklock inside it and believe me that's pretty hard as I have done a basic course with my rescue group,

But Fallout is about action and consequence, if your character don't meet the lockpick skill required for picking a hard lock should there be no consequences for failing to pick it apart from losing picks?
If nothing happens you can just repick it until it opens.
There is no consequence to that.
If you want no consequence to picking a lock then it should be required by the player character to have 100 in Lockpick and maybe a perk or two as well.

As for jamming a lock, I guess one can mess up the mechanics inside the lock if you pick it wrong too much, or the pick could break off and become jammed in the locks mechanics.

Fallout 3 lockpicking is just fine with me, rather have that then Skyrims which gets annoying at times. I would like to see a autopicker that will automatically unlock locks to the level your lockpick is at and everything higher you would have a lower chance of getting it with a chance of the lock breaking being high.

It's more realistic to have it like what Skyrim did but is also more challenging to have the way Fallout has it. I think Skyrim does it better since I find myself a bit angered by the fact that I get through a dungeon and I need 1 more lockpick point to open some brief case. I think that each check should basically be altered. The speech in Fallout 3 was alright, but I thought it was stupid you can fail a 90% check and succeed in a 20% check. Fallout NV had a better idea, but I thought it was even more painful and unforgiving than lockpicking.

Basically, you should be allowed to try lockpicking and hacking at any time, but they should VERY unforgiving if you fail at a low level.

I think it was all better in the originals. It was perfectly balanced. I really hate the minigames, since as it's been said they are either easy or too hard. Having it purely work by character skill is the best way.

I want Fallout to be FALLOUT, not TES. FO has his own lore, specs and setting.

I do not understand why people want F4 to be like TES, if I wanna a game like Skyrim I would play...Skyrim.