Please don't pressure the devs

Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:40 am

It's not the fault of voice acting in general that made oblivion's voice overs svck, it was Bethesda for not hiring enough voice actors.


Dragon Age was fully voiced and it had fantastic voice work throughout.


The time of text based dialogue in a AAA game is over.

True.
Besides, I'm not quite sure the idea that the voices in Oblivion killed the content is necessarily true. Did Bethesda say "yes, we had many other factions and dialogue lines and quests prepared but we had to cut them to make space for the voices"? This is pure speculation. What if the alternative was the exact same content Oblivion had but with text dialogue? I think once fully voiced dialogue was reached, a come back to text or partial text would be unacceptable market wise. But that doesn't mean we must be satisfied with poor dialogue for the sake of voices. Why not have voices and content? It's 2011. Disk space should be the last issue. Make the game on 2 disks, like many other games out there.
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Imy Davies
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:39 am

Wait, so is this dev saying that he wants to limit the voice acting, and have most of the dialogue just who up as words on a screen, so there's no voice, the user has to READ it all?

The day this happens will be a sad, sad day. If it's 2011 and a high end game, being in production for upwards of 4 years, is reduced to the point where there is limited voice acting, I wouldn't even know what to say...
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Motionsharp
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:15 pm

True.
Besides, I'm not quite sure the idea that the voices in Oblivion killed the content is necessarily true. Did Bethesda say "yes, we had many other factions and dialogue lines and quests prepared but we had to cut them to make space for the voices"? This is pure speculation. What if the alternative was the exact same content Oblivion had but with text dialogue? I think once fully voiced dialogue was reached, a come back to text or partial text would be unacceptable market wise. But that doesn't mean we must be satisfied with poor dialogue for the sake of voices. Why not have voices and content? It's 2011. Disk space should be the last issue. Make the game on 2 disks, like many other games out there.


Thank you, you worded it perfectly. It would be unnacceptable to go back to text-based dialogue. If they need more disk space, just use multiple disks (even for Xbox, make one disk install content onto the HD as if it were add-ons)
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Chris Ellis
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:56 am

Wait, so is this dev saying that he wants to limit the voice acting, and have most of the dialogue just who up as words on a screen, so there's no voice, the user has to READ it all?

The day this happens will be a sad, sad day. If it's 2011 and a high end game, being in production for upwards of 4 years, is reduced to the point where there is limited voice acting, I wouldn't even know what to say...

learn to read?

this isnt COD with a few lines, its an rpg, and voice acting is a limiting factor for how much original content can be added easily without having to think of the budget.

personally, i would be happy with an introduction and then have the majority of the lines just be text, somthing a bit more interactive than morrowind, but not fully voice acted like in oblivion, because tbh most players listen to it once and from then on skip the voice acting so its not really worth the effort
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trisha punch
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:52 pm

Wait, so is this dev saying that he wants to limit the voice acting, and have most of the dialogue just who up as words on a screen, so there's no voice, the user has to READ it all?

The day this happens will be a sad, sad day. If it's 2011 and a high end game, being in production for upwards of 4 years, is reduced to the point where there is limited voice acting, I wouldn't even know what to say...


I agree. Reading is hard and tiresome.

:spotted owl:
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Madison Poo
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:11 am

I don't see how voice acting was something the "kids" want. It's what everyone wants and is the natural progression of gaming. If they went back to the written dialogue then TES would take a step back in progression instead of a step forward. I keep seeing this "Oblivion had less dialogue than Morrowind because of voice acting." comments but the thing is, it was the opposite. Oblivion had more dialogue options than Morrowind did. What ruined Oblivion in a lot of peoples eyes is that they tried several new systems that hadn't been tried before on a game that was being built for a console that hadn't even been made yet. Yes, it had some problems, but what was Morrowind's excuse? It was a wasteland of exploits and bugs and less than stellar combat. The game series is evolving and you can't have evolution without trying new things and the only way to do that is put it in your games. So Oblivion had a few bumps. Who cares, how about we wait until we see how everything that happened in the other games have shaped Skyrim instead of trying to make clones of Morrowind. Frankly, if Skyrim was a clone of Morrowind, I would play it once just to see it's main quest story and then never play it again and I'd rather have game that was great and new instead of a copy of a game that I think is a great game with no replayability (Morrowind).
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Maddy Paul
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:22 pm

I used to be a skeptic about full voice acting until I played Mass Effect 2 and saw what good writing can do for voice actors. The problem with Oblivion and The Elder Scrolls in general is that there's just soooo many NPCs. I don't think there's any other option but to have a reduced quality of writing and quantity of dialogue...in 2006. In that sense Oblivion was a little ahead of its time and their implementation of it...leaves something to be desired which was Ken Rolston's point I think. The lines are delivered too slowly, too few voice actors, the writing was bad which led to bad voice overs. Fallout 3 and New Vegas had better quality dialogue and writing, but they also had far fewer voiced NPCs. I'll be very interested to see how they pull this off in Skyrim. I'm psyching myself up to see generic NPCs like in Fallout 3. It's easy to have good quality high quantity cinematic writing in a game like Mass Effect 2 where the number of voiced NPCs is probably below 100. Harder to pull off when you have over 1,000 unique NPCs to voice.

That said, even MMOs are jumping on the full voice over bandwagon (see: The Old Republic), so I also agree that not having full voice-over would hinder the game financially. And we know Bethesda isn't going to willingly do anything they think will make the game look lesser in the eyes of the gaming media...

That said, if you don't believe full voice-over hinders dialogue, look no further than Planescape: Torment. No fully voiced game will ever reach that level of quality, ever.
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Batricia Alele
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:13 am

Not like "kids" should be playing this game anyways. Especially if they haven't learned to read yet...

It doesn't have to do with if someone knows how to read or not, it has to do with what the current generations and the majority of people find more immersion. It is unfortunate that this something with a fair amount of disagreement into which is most immersive. I feel fortunate that I like voiced and type to be the best since it's become fairly common. Reading and listening are both good skills to have. ;)
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Neko Jenny
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:13 am

learn to read?

this isnt COD with a few lines, its an rpg, and voice acting is a limiting factor for how much original content can be added easily without having to think of the budget.

personally, i would be happy with an introduction and then have the majority of the lines just be text, somthing a bit more interactive than morrowind, but not fully voice acted like in oblivion, because tbh most players listen to it once and from then on skip the voice acting so its not really worth the effort



I agree. Reading is hard and tiresome.

:spotted owl:


Love the maturity here..

No, reading isn't hard or tiresome. It's just boring as hell and EXTREMELY last generation? What's the point in advancements of technology if you don't use it? Text-based dialogue would be pathetic in a game of this magnitude, that's been in development for 4 years, and with all of the technology at their disposal. It's really just an out for them. They act like they can't add more data all because of voice-acting. Um.. If you can't fit it all on one disk, how about they put it on multiple disks?

I know it's a crazy idea, but try to keep up.
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Haley Cooper
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:52 pm

So should I be happy that the devs actually want to do the right thing, or upset that they instead do what "the kids" want them to do?
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Nany Smith
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:37 am

Here we go again, "Everything must be exactly like Morrowind!"
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Lisa Robb
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:38 pm

Love the maturity here..

No, reading isn't hard or tiresome. It's just boring as hell and EXTREMELY last generation? What's the point in advancements of technology if you don't use it? Text-based dialogue would be pathetic in a game of this magnitude, that's been in development for 4 years, and with all of the technology at their disposal. It's really just an out for them. They act like they can't add more data all because of voice-acting. Um.. If you can't fit it all on one disk, how about they put it on multiple disks?

I know it's a crazy idea, but try to keep up.

i dont care what the current generation of FPS, RTS, action or even RPG games are doing, TES is in a league of its own so the current 'gaming trends' dont apply to it.
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Damien Mulvenna
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:23 pm

After they've listened though, the devs should make their own decision, of course.

People don't know what they want. I have two personal examples if you (all) don't just think "tl;dr" to yourself:


1. My grandfather has worked in construction for I don't know how many years as a contractor. By the numbers he mostly build spec houses, or houses where there is no buyer before construction begins. The other 5% of what he builds is custom homes. In recent years, he has almost completely stopped building customs unless he knows the person he is building it for. The customers almost always prove difficult to keep in contact with, change their minds several times after it is too late, and make bad decisions when they do step in.

a] The first bit of that explains why he only builds homes for people he already knows. This guarantees that they understand he is good at what he does. They tell him what they're looking for, he makes the plans, then they approve and don't step in unless there is an actual issue. This makes everything work more smoothly because it's just in essence a more expensive spec house with a buyer lined up.

b] I myself have witnessed customers change their minds. First they want the wall painted one color, then "oh, I didn't realize it was going to look like that, can you change it back?" It's best to cut the buyer out of the loop for their own good. All they do is raise the price, tie up the painter/floor sander from working on other houses, and give the contractor nightmares. When you have two painters for sixteen houses, repainting rooms twice grinds the entire cycle to a halt. (All at different stages)

c] Finally, the buyers typically make bad decisions when they do make them. One person bought a parcel of land from my grandfather and wanted to build his own house on it. He started with a massive two story garage that is bigger than most houses. He never filled it more than halfway, and it was hideous when the house was finally built and attached as an addition to his garage. As I always said, it's a garage with a house attached. Indeed, when the time came for the man to sell his garage, no one would buy it (During the housing market boom, not rock bottom).

Custom houses don't sell because they're too tailored to a specific person/group. Think of these forums as the custom home buyers. We all want these different ideas placed into our game, we can't even all agree on the same thing.


2. I have worked in television production. One of the quickest lessons I learned was that customers don't know what they want. Unlike construction, we have to create custom videos for the clients. You have to listen to your client, but you must be grounded and know what is and is not feasible. If you overstep your abilities then you end up taking longer and making something with bad quality. The best thing to do is design what you think the audience will like and sell it well to the client. If you don't know what you're doing, then you shouldn't be a television producer; if the client knows better, then they should be the ones making the product.

Oblivion certainly shows signs of overstepping boundaries, so I am agreeing with the OP in that we need to not be so custom and exotic in our suggestions. Grounded ideas are the best. Think of ways to spice up the game without being ridiculous (Pets vs hardcoe Physics).
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jessica robson
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:21 pm

No, reading isn't hard or tiresome. It's just boring as hell and EXTREMELY last generation? What's the point in advancements of technology if you don't use it? Text-based dialogue would be pathetic in a game of this magnitude, that's been in development for 4 years, and with all of the technology at their disposal. It's really just an out for them. They act like they can't add more data all because of voice-acting. Um.. If you can't fit it all on one disk, how about they put it on multiple disks?


When you consider the logistics of it though, Oblivion definitely sacrificed a lot for its full voice-over, disk space being the least of the problems. It turns what is otherwise a simple writing process into an extensive hundreds of man hours consuming grind in the recording booth. It's no wonder Oblivion has far fewer NPCs and far fewer voice actors than Morrowind. And it only makes sense to include a quest compass instead of giving directions because to do otherwise would mean having to go back and redo voice overs if anything changes in the design and testing process. And that doesn't even take into account the quality of the dialogue (being a process of writing, not voice over) which I think suffered in Oblivion. No NPC speaks more than few lines of dialogue in a single conversation as far as I know. Far reduced from where it was in Morrowind where paragraph after paragraph was more common.
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Sophie Louise Edge
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:41 pm

When you consider the logistics of it though, Oblivion definitely sacrificed a lot for its full voice-over, disk space being the least of the problems. It turns what is otherwise a simple writing process into an extensive hundreds of man hours consuming grind in the recording booth. It's no wonder Oblivion has far fewer NPCs and far fewer voice actors than Morrowind. And it only makes sense to include a quest compass instead of giving directions because to do otherwise would mean having to go back and redo voice overs if anything changes in the design and testing process. And that doesn't even take into account the quality of the dialogue (being a process of writing, not voice over) which I think suffered in Oblivion. No NPC speaks more than few lines of dialogue in a single conversation as far as I know. Far reduced from where it was in Morrowind where paragraph after paragraph was more common.

You have a good point that using voice over costs a lot more resource than just simple text. However after porting to console the morrowind style massive text probably won't work because people never like to read on a tv screen, no matter at what resolution.
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Emily Rose
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:51 pm


Some would say that it adds to immersion and makes the game a better one.
I say, sure, it would make the game more immersive, if implemented the right way, with a lot of voice actors, and so on...

But on the other hand it severely limits the amount of background life, story, drama, conversation that you can give to any single individual in the game, (developers, or modders later), and the complexity of NPC AI and the responses that they can give us as the result of their own AI, not scripted dialogs.

And it kills the notion of procedurally generated events and quests on the bud, where you could define scenarios for the events, and the engine could fill in roles with any suitable NPC available, and fill in any item template with available resources and so on...

OK, so I'd say in open world games, voiced dialogs were a bad thing to happen and severely and negatively impact the game's background life of its individuals, and the chance of modders making them better.


I'm very optimist about skyrim and really excited about it.

I really loved Morrowind.

I liked Oblivion, if a bit disillusioned.

My only problem with the current trend would be that, with voice acting for every line, it would be really hard for modders to add some types of content to the game without decreasing some immersion.

We do not have access to the original voice actors, so changing, correcting or adding to the dialogs of current NPCs would probably break the immersion, because the new lines would either have no voice or voices that are not exactly like their original ones.

And adding new NPCs, would require a lot of work and are harder to implement if we do not like to have silences lines that would contrast the other part of the game, and I do not foresee mods like Morrowind's "Less Generic NPCs" for Skyrim that could add a lot of life, back ground, and drama to its population.

Voice acting has made it harder to added spoken content to the games, and there is no hope for this situation, until some decent procedural voice generation is added to the games, maybe by some middle-ware technology.


But one single fact remains as before.

In Morrowind most of quest dialogs were text only, so they could alter them as they liked and add tons and tons of it to dialogs and quests, and then change and fix them in the last minutes without much ado, and so on...

In Oblivion, they decided to add voice overs, for each dialog line, and some of them were used for all the races, foe men and women.

In this trend they had put a sever limit on the amount of text they could use in a dialog, and it would not be practical to change and fix the texts extensively in the last moment, and so on...

The NPC AI and Dialogs were severely limited and they had to save time and effort for each line added or changed, so lots and lots of detail were reduced from AI responses and dialogs.

And I do not see the trend take a step back and reintroduce text only dialog, and I do not see the trend take a step forward and introduce procedurally generated voice overs, for the texts, as I voted for in http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1108155-xzzz.


Voice acting does indeed affect the general game design, directly and indirectly:

Directly: Lets say that bethesda could somehow develop a quest management system that could generate(select, reshape and refit) fully interactive quest-lines and pick any nearby character fitting the role templates of the quests, and start the quests over the available resources and characters, what effect do you thing a fully and fixedly voice acted game would have on such a system, do you really think that it would be possible to make something that flexible in such a game?

You know, I know that if we loose ourselves from the shackles of voice acted dialog lines, some really innovative and ground breaking solutions would start to appear that would revolutionize the quest building concepts and character AI, and IMHO the current trend of fully voice acted dialogs acts just like shackles. It does not kill quests, but fully limits what we could do with them, or with character AI.

Indirectly: If we think of the time, resource, and funds that are going into the fully voice acted dialogs, and consider that game developers do not have unlimited time, resource and funds at hand in order to develop all the aspects of their games, it would become quite visible how it all affects the entire project.

The consumed time, resource, and funds could be spent on more writers, quest builders, dungeon designers, engine programmers and so on...

Solution: look at the next part.

...

For starters, let compare synthesized voices with graphics:

Computer games started without any voices, and graphics, but eventually some really awful(compared to nowadays) graphics and beeps began to show in games, those graphics were their attempt to synthesize the life forms in computers, but they did have little in common with a real world shapes.

We coped with bad graphics, but tried to improve them, so we started to develop our ways to synthesize the real-world shapes into computer graphics, and we have reached the stages that sometimes one would look at a scene with awe and say: "Is this really computer generated?"

And suppose we had decided that those graphics were too bad and hopeless, so we had better start to capture real-life pictures and somehow use them in the games, were we would be now? We would be watching some restricted and guided interactive movies in the computer. And we would not have the freedom to do the things that we do in games now, because any free form interaction with players would bring unpredictable results and the captured life shapes could not handle the results.

So captured real life actor voices is exactly like captured real life actor shapes, and if we stick to this form of game development, we would loose the unimaginable brain-blowing future advancements in game development.

Could the initial creators of "Packman" and "Space invaders" possibly imagine what we are playing now? Their pathetic efforts to create a synthesized life form on the computer screen were the initial steps to the place that we are standing now, and where would be now if the original founders of the games had told them that they did not like the results and lets start showing only real life pictures?

I say lets put all of our manpower and resources into developing good voice synthesizing engines and bear with initial results so that they can start to grow, and we would surely reach places that we can not even begin to imagine now.

That's all.

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ashleigh bryden
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:41 am

Two out of millions. I know many youth and old folks that loved Oblivion. In fact most I meet that play it and don't spend time on game forums answer that they love it. Such second hand news means little. The sells speak for themselves. And while I was disappointed in some aspects of Oblivion, I also was in MW and I am sure I will have some disappointments in Skyrim. But in all so far the enjoyment far exceeded the disappointments.


Only two? Doubtful.

You could say the same for small majority of people you have met. Friends I've loaned the game to didn't know what to do as soon as they left the Imperal City Sewer. It would have been twice as worse had they ever picked up Morrowind.

Point is that it takes a certain type of person to enjoy such a massive RPG. Many people just want to sit down with a fresh game, and finish it by the end of the week.

Whoever these "Kids" are, they're obviously Elder Scrolls fans, who were be troubled enough to join the online community and complain.
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Andy durkan
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:59 pm

To those who put hope on text-to-speech technology, it's in a certain way very different than graphics technology: it cannot be developed by the game developer. text to speech requires a dedicated organization years and years of research, and before it's completely perfect, it cannot be used in gaming AT ALL, because even if the generated speech is a little bit unnatural the players will be disgusted.

therefore, I don't see games using text to speech within the next 10 years. in the mean time for games that involve tv screens, voice acting is the only solution.
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Joey Avelar
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:14 pm

We are the kids.
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George PUluse
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:14 pm

Love the maturity here..

No, reading isn't hard or tiresome. It's just boring as hell and EXTREMELY last generation? What's the point in advancements of technology if you don't use it? Text-based dialogue would be pathetic in a game of this magnitude, that's been in development for 4 years, and with all of the technology at their disposal. It's really just an out for them. They act like they can't add more data all because of voice-acting. Um.. If you can't fit it all on one disk, how about they put it on multiple disks?

I know it's a crazy idea, but try to keep up.

you know he was being ironic?
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Amysaurusrex
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:48 pm

Too bad Ken left, he was the only one who knew what they were doing.
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Hannah Barnard
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:26 pm

i agree with the OP because i would way rather have more content in a game than sacrifice some because of voice acting, and if that means doing MW then lets do it. The DEVS know what they are doing and i trust them with the game, they should do whatever they feel is right
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Laura Samson
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:55 am

Who cares. Theyll figure it out. Thats their job. Jobs are hard.
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Sabrina garzotto
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:25 pm

I love giving advice though :(

But I've seen a lot of, really bad ignorance. Especially concerning things like Steam. People that haven't a clue about wtf and just want to hate on it.
Never the less part of the fun is complaining, griping, etc. It's like being a boss without any of the responsibility or pressure. Too bad it doesn't have the authority or pay either :cryvaultboy:
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Heather M
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:04 pm

I liked reading, it allowed for more depth in story line i think.
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Misty lt
 
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