Eh, I'm no "immersion player" (seriously, I hate that word. I'm glad I don't suffer from it, since all it seems to do is constantly get broken & ruin games). But I did think that the way nearly every Skyrim dungeon's end room dumped you right back at the entrance was a bit odd.

But as long as the dungeons are interesting, it'll be fine.

Oh man, so did I!

Skyrims main mistake imho was it's weak roleplay possibilities, PNJ didn't cared about what you said at all.

This is probably their last game with the Gamebryo-Creation -engine. I don't know about technical stuff, but I guess it's age limits them somewhat. I'd imagine they're switching to a new engine for their next TES-game.


Fallout 3 had a lot more buildings. Most buildings are designed to be easily navigated and quickly evacuated. For example, if you were to navigate a large building clockwise, you'd probably end up back where you started.

Trust me, I'm an architect.

...

*cough*

I wish I could answer this question but I just don't know. If it's anything like Fallout 3 then it will be linear but not really. I'm hoping that it's not completely linear and that there are multiple paths you can experience per buildings/vaults.

Looking back on Fallout 3 and NV in comparison to Oblivion. I guess they did already "magic door" dungeons largely.

How often did a building have a hole in the ground to jump down to the floor below it? How often did a building have an outside area where Fast Travel could be initiated from?

I remember being stuck on the top of that Hotel for that quest Riley's Rangers. And there you, or one of the rangers, repairs the elevator. So after fighting your way to the top there is a shortcut straight to ground floor so you don't have to backtrack the whole thing.

Maybe Fallout 3 and NV were a bit less blunt about it, and obfuscated these convenient shortcuts pretty well as oppose every dungeon having a door right next to the entrance thats locked from the other side.

I think many people forget that "back doors" did not begin with Skyrim. They first appeared in Oblivion (Vilverin being a prominent example). But they used them more tastefully and sparingly in that game. Back doors didn't feel quite so shoved right into your face in Oblivion as they do in Skyrim. I think the problem in Skyrim is not that back doors exist, but that, for some people, they felt so monotonously regular. You could count on one being right there, exactly where you needed it, when you needed it, each time. I think it's the regularity that mainly gets on many people's nerves.

Bethesda has a habit being a little too over-enthusiastic with their new ideas. When they introduced scaling in Oblivion, for instance, they were way too heavy-handed with it. It was everywhere you went, and it was oppressive. But they learned their lesson and cut way back on scaling when they made Fallout 3. I think the same thing may happen with back doors. I think we may see a lot more variation in how back doors are used in Fallout 4.

As I said earlier, I like back doors. But I think it would have been better if they'd made a few Skyrim dungeons without back doors. And made the ones that were in the game a bit less glaringly obvious. I think doing just those two things would go a long ways towards making some people less annoyed with them.

I dunno, I felt that Skyrim had a really good balance of dungeons that looped around, dungeons that had an exit that spat you out somewhere else in the over-world, and dungeons that were small enough (most caves and bandit camps) where they didn't need a shortcut out. If the shortcut wasn't there, would people have preferred a Legend of Zelda blue light they could walk into to return them to the entrance?

I think with the idea of Back Doors they just responded to a complaint of about 'half' the players thing.

There are the players that want to rp it and slog back through the now empty dungeon or building and see if they missed anything, and then another 'half' of the players that are in it for the action and are ready to head to the next fight post haste. Beth just tried to meet the wants of both camps and put a backdoor in everything they could manage it.

If you were in a hurry take the door, if it didn't feel rp or immersive enough for you then turn around and exit backtracking, easy enough.

Just because they "offer" a player something, doesn't mean they expect every player to use it every time. Beth has always been about trying to make their open world games as player controllable as they could figure out a way to make them without mucking up the experience for one group of players in favor of another.

Yeah, when you'd tracked through a three-map Ayleid Ruin, having a shortcut back to the beginning was nice. But when nearly every tomb, castle, and cave somehow conveniently had the "boss"/treasure room just on the other side of a door from the entrance...... it just got a bit much.

The only way it would be interesting to have to back-track through a dungeon is if said dungeon is then filled with monsters so that you have to fight your way all the way back out too the entrance. Something that I haven't seen in gaming and well a fair bit more interesting than a 10-30 minute hike.

And when you tried to open that door and it said "This door is barred from the other side", you immediately knew that's where you'll be coming out.

You make it sound like you've already played the final release! Not only are you assuming a great deal (which, to be fair, we all are), what you're actually saying is that Fallout 4 is guaranteed to be a disaster based on your negative opinion of a previous game, which makes no sense at all.

I was at peace with that.

If you've played one BGS game, you've played them all. They are pretty much a one trick pony.

Granted, it is a nice trick
And you can accessorize the pony yourself

I couldn't disagree more. I've played every BGS title since Morrowind (I've been a gamer for around 30 years), and I've seen a huge number of positive advancements, as well as a few mistakes along the way of course. But I remain hopeful based on what we've seen so far, and I have no doubt that the team will once again deliver on their promise.

Considering they've specifically focus on vertical areas, I belive we won't be seeing linear, dull dungeons. Can't wait to see what they've come up with.

Agree 100%. As much as the random caves where more realistic, I was never ungrateful to open that passage that dropped me right beside the exit. Course you could justify it by saying if a bandit was going to have a cave hideout, wouldn't it make sense to have an extra exit, or way to the exit? I mean if the Jarl ever got some real balls and sent 10+ guards to clear out a cave being able to escape the cave while the guards are searching through it is a big plus (and a life saver). Over time just about any inhabitable cave would have been given a 'back door' just for this purpose. So for a random unexplored cave having a back door doesn't make a lot of sense, but for an inhabited cave, it makes a lot of sense.

Graphics improve, mechanics get simpler, yet work better, variety gets reduced, and in the end of the day you're still crawling dungeons killing everything that moves and stealing everything not nailed down

Though i still have not played Morrowind, i hear it has the best excuse to kill and steal everything everywhere

To kill anyone in a Bethesda game you need no more reason than "I like your hat".

Have to disagree with OP. Skyrim's delves were delightful little nuggets of their own. Many were fantastically gorgeous and speckled with little bits of story to follow as you went further and further inward.

Yes, but since i play on PC, i rather use console commands for that. Well, if he's a civilian, that is

If me confirming that there will be Skyrim "mistakes" in Fallout 4 is synonymous for FO4 will be a disaster then my post did not come across the way it should'v.

My opinion whether you think it positive or negative is not a mere guess. To name an example, you can see clearly on the video that showed at the E3 unveiling of FO4 that at some point in VATS an actor named "Raider" was shot and killed. It is copy paste of FO3 and I can promise you many more things will be exactly that, copy + paste with new graphics.

I am sure since you are a gamer for over 30 years (wow) you understand that when creating games a lot of code is reused for future titles. The same engine is being reused and a lot of design concepts of previous titles such as Skyrim have been implemented and used in FO4.

This means we will see mistakes such as plenty of generic NPCs populating the FO4 landscape, if that could be called a 'mistake'.

Perhaps I have no right to assume so much before the games release but Skyrim was for me a huge let down and ever since I know not to expect too much from Bethesda.

wait thats a mistake? I actually liked that there was a backdoor at the end of most dungeons. Saved me from walking back through an empty dungeon for no reason. I could get on with doing something fun or exploring someplace i' hadn't already been

BGS games are like democracy: absolutely terrible, but it's the best we got . Despite their numerous chronic flaws, they still have little in the way of competition when it comes to open-world RPGs. Note that I have yet to play The Witcher 3.