Given that the attributes are gone, most of the signs would serve no purpose, and the others were all once per day spells few people actually used. The soul exceptions being the Mage, the Apprentice, and the Atronach, which gave you bonuses to your mana pool. However given the way regenerating mana worked in Oblivion players had less of an incentive to take these, especially the Atronach.

Oblivion is a very bad example.
Level scaling is your problem here, not birthsigns..
The attitude of 'abusing' is what got us into this mess in the first place. We are not 'abusing' we are playing the game as we like.
I should be allowed to play as a peaceful monk and still be able to sneak through quests.
That people think Im 'cheating by avoiding content' is irrelevant and narrowminded.

Sorry, but when it comes to rating a TES game you really need to go by Daggerfall and Morrowind. Oblivion was a step back. Everyone thinks so, even though they dont dare say it. Make any poll that even sideways compares the two. Morrowind wins 2/1 every time, guaranteed. If you ask people to vote on any kind of thing they will vote Morrowind over Oblivion style on anything. Its not a qualifier, its an observation.
I think its folly to believe Bethesda will listen to the action game crowd, no matter how vocal they are.
In sales and on votes such as on here the RPG crowd wins every time by a margin that isnt even funny.

edit: i dont want to start a flame war, I really dont, but some things have got to be said sometimes.
Everyone can have an opinion, but sometimes people have to admit that while they are eloquent and vocal they are simply a minority. There is no shame in that.

Return us traits advantages and disadvantages as well as birthsigns make character more unique if need so much make game easy to understood put such features into hardcoe mode, not all want play as generic commoners of all trades masters of none, such streamlining as birthsigns removal is really doesn't have significant reason at all, all such reason can be fixed in simple way, why TES must lose features?

Right, because there are no choices about character development after character creation, so without traits, all characters will always end up the same...

Worry not they'll be modded back in.

Oh what's that you play on console? /snicker

The Name Of Topic: Ok, I wont tell you that birthsigns are removed.... But they are.
Anyways: Well..... I'm Happy about all those things being removed since they served no purpose except attribute buffs and spells. Since attributes are now split into 3 parts you can't do.... stuff

Right because there are no starting choices about character development before character creation, so without traits, all characters will always start up the same...
So you cannot start as mage or warrior what train since childhood as apprentice and have to start as blank clone what was brainwashed amnesiac and don't know anything before execution at the beginning of game?
If you like play as such Jack of all trades play it, other must have more option, besides choosing starting options and furtherer character development does not exclude each other and now even can synergy in union.
Before I already give you good description how it can be done and doesn't see any logical answers what fortified with facts why starting chooses must be limited only to race, name your arguments.

I'm amazed at the number of people who are in favor of the removal of things like birthsigns that had a such a huge impact on the replay value of the previous TES games.

So you're happy that your character will start out every single play through exactly the same . . . with no inherent strengths and weaknesses? The only difference will be in appearance. Why would you be happy about that???

What if they removed the ability to play any of the 10 races in the game? Would you be happy about that as well?

Of course I would be happy with that. Who am I to question Bethesda?

Because they end up much more specified/different than all being the same at the end of Morrowind and Oblivion. It's the opposite.

Yes, if there would be a way to change your race during gameplay, but that would be silly.

Also, birthsigns had a huge impact? :rofl:
Pull the other one...

Now that attributes are gone, birth signs can be based on special perks.

IMHO, perks can replace anything is designed properly, like I have discussed http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1107940-perks-they-can-make-each-play-through-a-unique-experience.

Im sure after skyrim is released we will have a likes and dislikes thread. after looking at this i bet we're gonna have a lot of dislikes

Indeed. Who would think "Okay so I've played this character for a while with this birthsign... time to go and start a new one just to try that other birthsign! (which effects I can get by buying a spell or finding an enchanted item).

Birthsigns had a nice touch though. Felt nice. But impact? Nonono. Almost any item or spell could replace them.
And, birthsigns don't really "work" any more with the new way Bethesda has taken on leveling. You are what you play, not what you choose in the beginning. I'm very happy with that.

I hope they're still there, of course then there's the major possibility that Bethesda decided it was "redundant" or whatever and instead of improving it just removed it all together.

The one funding them, if people don't buy their games then more wont come, so of COURSE you should question What bethesda does when they start FING the reasons you bought the game, and no Dont come to be about I didnt buy TES for Birthsigns, you know exactly what I mean.

The main reason for the removal of Birthsigns (and Classes) is so that players would not have to be stuck with the consequences of the things that made their character unique. Some of us want MORE consequences for our actions . . . not LESS! Yet the newbie whiners win yet again. Skyrim is sounding more like Oblivion-Lite (as far as depth goes), with better graphics and dragons.

Note that my statement was "So you're happy that your character will START out every single play through exactly the same . . . with no INHERENT strengths and weaknesses?" You don't begin the game with perks.

Birthsigns could have a MAJOR impact in your game play . . . if they were done correctly. But too many people would hate that, because it would mean that their character would have limitations . . . which would prevent them from being all powerful and being able to kill everything with ease after a few levels.

So, instead of improving something that didn't work as well as it should have in previous games . . . it is better to just remove it?

You are customer who pay money for quality and finished product do you want still hard work with editor and install gigabytes of mods to improve, fix and return features what was before but then was axed?
I think if I pay money then I deserve quality product thats is finished not half baked cake without cream and cherry on top while all previous cakes have it such features but then some one with allergy start cry about such ingredients and Baker then start make tasteless piece of unleavened dough and cell them as finished cakes in nice box with pictures.

But not start, starting and ending is not the same and don't exclude each other.

So races had a huge impact? :rofl:
Thats by your words do you understand thats races have difference in starting parameters only and then lose them at the same way as birthsigns do by your logic, or you think significant diversion between races can be but significant impact on gameplay from starting traits cannot be?
Oh well thats fixing in simple way by leveling with character chosen traits since experience is form of modeling natural maturity of character during game the same as development of his skills, I say again starting traits is not exclude furtherer character development they work well together in synergy, describe your arguments or don't make such mockery on others opinions.

In this case, yeah it's better to remove it. Bethesda has a new take on leveling now as I'm sure you've heard of. You are what you play, not what you choose from a list of options in the beginning. I'm very happy of it and it makes so much more sense.

It's true that birthsigns would have been able to be changed to have major impact on the gameplay. But would that be good? It would be like another class-thing. We're restricted into something we choose in the beginning. That's definitely not good I think.

You're also right about you don't begin the game with perks. But you level up quickly in the beginning, so that you can try out different perks fast. There could therefore still be more consquences for you quite early in the game.

Birthsigns dosen't need to be strictly stats, I like the idea of the stars having a magic effect on people, maybe it could be a story element? Which starsign you're born under?
There could be ways of giving your character advantages without setting him on a specific class path also.

And c'mon, we're restricted into what race we choose in the beginning also, some amount of restriction is good and logical.

The choices you made at the beginning aren't dead weight, they're the foundation of your character, your past, and the choices you made in game determined your future. Removing the ability to make unique characters from the start pretty much ruins that idea.

What's next? Why don't we just make the player a chim so he can edit his character and stats at any point in the game? Then no one can ever complain about their past choices because they can now just bend time and be born an Imperial instead of an Orc. :facepalm:

Races had a much bigger impact, even if we remove the stat and ability differences.

NPCs actually recognized your races, and sometimes treated you differently. Outside the Emperor from Oblivion, nobody said anything about your birthsign.

And even the stat differences are bigger, with elemental strengths and weaknesses.

The main thing with traits is that they come with strenghts and weaknesses that you have to live with during the whole gameplay, and they tend to be a lot stronger than racial perks. Choosing those right at the beginning tend to be a bad idea, and starting over, is NEVER good.

why is this thread ongoing....they're out....not much more to say, and not much reason to complain. Also they will not ever be putting them back in, if they follow their track record. There will likely be a mod to add it though. Personally I do believe beth is going in the right direction.

Thank you Todd for your great directing of the elder scrolls. we're lucky to have you on the job.

holy F, Trolling just reached a whole new level........