...did I miss something?

ACTUALLY its said that the skills page is in the stars above us qhere as we increase our fighting skills u will begin to see that the "warrior" sign will start to appear in the sky
So this should translate to the other skills in the game as well..prolly until the entire sky highlights all the signs as u progress....no info on wether this gives u a bonus or not

A lot of things are apparently gone. I'm beginning to wonder if Skyrim will be more than a point-and-click adventure game.

I think Action Adventure with stats would be a better description.

Are you kidding me? This is the sort of person who just blithely skips along behind Todd as he removes element after element of what made TES great. "Why yes Todd, I'd love to define my character with a bunch of on/off switches (perks) rather than by the sum of eight 0-100 attribute scales, that sounds MUCH better! And I agree with you that 250 choose 50 binary switches doesn't allow for less character diversity than the old system does!!!"

And another thing, why can't we have perks and attributes/birthsigns? Who the hell says that they're mutually exclusive?

Relax, good sir. I was merely taking a sarcastic and in my opinion humorous approach.

No they dont have great impact at all, all difference between races visible only at beginning at middle of game difference is out racial traits become almost useless because of leveling and equipment, NPC incapable use powers, races then become divisible only by visuals all characters become equal only races with actual strong traits become slightly differ from others, to feel challenge many players start as inappropriate chose for race like Altmers warriors instead of choosing mage, races different in TES only by visuals and starting traits since there is no limits to become master in anything just not all specializations equally easy mastered for all races.


And how such recognizability impact on gameplay? Almost has not impact at all, did you know thats you can play Oblivion by custom race and encounter recognize only few such events Valen Dreth welcome and Boethia Shrine besides rare lines in dialogues all other difference is cosmetic and don't have any changes in gameplay, even Morrowind has better race recognizability then Oblivion I only hope thats was fixed in Skyrim.
Ability NPC comment your traits is the same feature as ability NPC comment your disease skills and equipment and Oblivion is have visible reduction of such NPC reactions, such feature not hard at all to be done, since use the same techs what already in game.

What stat difference there is no attributes at all, only skills bonuses what wear of so fast because now skills levels in much faster way, elemental strengths and weaknesses work only for few races from ten, having traits is need to make each start more unique thats increase re-playability of game, make traits useful is not hard at all.


So you say thats races is not equal and different and have visible impact on gameplay during all game session and not require initial thinking what character you will play don't planing his furtherer progression during game and thats is not as the same as chose of starting traits while birthsigns is an example of such traits?
Altmers starts with come with strengths and weaknesses you see them as cool tall golden elves you take them don't read description thats say about their strengths and weaknesses and recommended initial pats of specialization then rush into combat melee and die from few strikes think thats was bad idea and cry at forums thats altmers was gimped remove them from game dont try reload think again and start again with proper chose thats much easer for you until you become more experienced to play game altmer warrior, and in next TES devs axe Altmers from game, well I think thats irrational way to play TES games, in such cases better if Skytim will not have TES title and become another The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Nord or The Elder Scrolls Travels: Skyrim or An Elder Scrolls Legend: Dragonborn since will not have features to be equal to other games of series.

So you say thats starting traits cannot be stronger then racial traits (because perks are depend on skills and received from skill you say by self thats not Fallout so think again) why exactly they cannot be stronger then racial trait?
Starting traits is unique inborn abilities what was developed during maturity if you are born as altmer with less weakness to elements but lesser magical affinity then other altmers thats normal and add some new ways to play as already played before race it the same if altmer born under Atronach birthsigns give different playing experience then altmer born under Lord birthsigns, now we play as altmer always without of any differences in start, we don't have classes and governing skills we start as newborn child what was magically aged or as mentally ill person what forget all about it past.

Traits can have cost for chose at the begining similar to Daggrfall advantages and disadvantages chose only few problem was in it
first one thats it has imbalanced traits thats add immunity and was compensated by chose of miserable for current gameplay disadvantages.
second one thats racial traits not work with them as well certain traits but thats was because of overall large number of bugs in game.
So thats why advantages&disadvantages was reworked into birthsigns where combinations of advantages&disadvantages was already packed into form of starsign with unique visuals such sets was much easy to control then various combination of advantages&disadvantages, so why not create such traits as sets of various but already tested spell effects combinations thats have some unique scripted effects and can advance in levels with certain values of character level, the same goes to racial powers for example Bosmers Beast Tongue thats not static but level up with character or Dunmer Ancestor Guardian will be leveled creature with various abilities, traits initially have visible and undeveloped effects what scale with character level then traits become useful during all game play as well is not ridiculously powerful at the beginning.
If some one fear of traits then better if game will have two modes casual one where we play as Nord warrior commoner and hardcoe mode where all features accessible thats much better then don't have features at all just because some one afraid to experiment or explore, lazy to rebuild character accordingly to self skills, or lazy to read description what is written in good and informative way.

Races could be made with some class neutral strenghts and weaknesses, like bonus to health, elemental strengths and weaknesses, darkvision and breathing underwater. Technically, you could do the same with chooseable traits, but with that they would kinda lose their point, and we would have the exact same problem as with birthsigns, being useless.
Why are those traits stronger than race traits? Are there any races in Daggerfall, that have stunted magicka or damage from sunlight or less magicka outside from attribute differences? Races tend to be (or should be) made to be versatile, so if you want to make an Altmer fighter, you won't be at a big disadvantage.

If you really have problems with your character not having a background, starting skill bonuses could mend this. They're from your experiences from your past, and yes it could quickly deteriorate, but that's how past experience works, you either use it or you ignore it. Although we won't have this in the game either, but not like it matters much...


Yeah, Gothic, Planescape Torment and Ultima were well known adventure games I guess :rolleyes:

Birthsigns already example of traits they add diversity to the same race chose, was they being useless as feature no they wasn't there is many mods thats make birthsigns really interesting and useful, even if devs will not use scripts to make traits useful they can use their favorable level scaling for spells thats used in trait effects and change not all but logical parts of trait.


No there is no such races but there can be such individuals and thats what traits do they add more individuality to character from beginning, no one force you chose traits you can process chargen furtherer and plays genneric commoner without background and individuality what available from beginning, traits and classes is option you by self decide start games with traits and classes or be commoner thats simple chose as before was chose create own class or use premade one, now there will be chose take commoner what has no specializations and traits or move to more advanced chargen with classes and traits, simple chose what was always in TES, for more versatile gameplay, if need such chose can be moved into hardcoe mod for sake of newcomers.


How only skill bonuses can describe how strong character naturally when skills are thats what we learn, while traits are used for describe not only discovered during training talents but also inborn ones, for example Dovahkiin has inborn trait to devour souls of dragons, ability use dragon shouts is not make him unique since shouts used by other also while soul absorbing is used only by dragonborn.
Thats great example of powerful trait thats even have special place in game but does we must limited only to one trait in game?


They all have different form TES mechanic, for example they all have attributes in greater number then only three, and they have classes but their acquirement is differ.

You're not getting them at the beginning though...

Morrowind as an Imperial: "What is this regarding, Cyrodiil?"
Oblivion as an Imperial: "Hi there!"
Oblivion as any non-elf: "Hi there!"

Or so it felt to me. :shrug:

Is it that HARD to just for once admit you start the game as some random orc/breton/argonian/... with no adventuring skills whatsoever ? Because that's what happens in Skyrim. You aren't some mentally deficient Orc that forgot everything after some bad accident or a 1 year old toddler that was caught in a magical experiment and got 20 years older instantly. You don't need such outlandish backgrounds to explain why you start the game with no adventuring skills.

The explanations is just that : you are just some random town person/peasant with no adventuring skills that was thrown out violently of his confort zone on a big adventure and now you must pick up the required skills fast cause that dragon in the sky is coming for you.

Actually, Ultima 7 got 3 attributes : Str, Dex, Int and two skills : Combat, Magic. The Avatar is also of no class at all (all companions too) and just does whatever you want him to do as long as you got the correct training.

They called you Imperial dog/brother/sister too.

Heck, they also had race specific battle cries.

Awww....i'm gonna miss my Shadow Spell.
That Birthsign got me out of a ton of jams.

:sadvaultboy: <------ I am a sad vault boy

You could just get the Jone Stone power instead. It only required 10 fame/infamy total which is damn easy to get.

still going :cryvaultboy:

I'm not fussed. I wouldn't mind a Dwemer Orrery where we can actually see them in the sky, that'd be cool.

Of course, they could be back in the form of low-level perks (traits, if you will). I'd be down with that.

Well such discussion not about Skyrim but I agree with you classes is thats what commoner must learn in specialized training facilities logical step tie class chose guild such thing was done in Gothic and Land of Lore, or learn class from an trainer, but as well there is can be option to start as such class in cost of flexibility in other classes, if I remember well I already describe such system for you before, so lets return to acquirement of classes, such acquirement can be tied to initial requirement to join guild so guilds will take really gifted and talented persons, as well there can be different rank class trees so guilds can allow join versatile characters but on different positions in guild for example fighter guild can provide work for sword masters and for marksmans both, mage guild can have different schools or even as special training can train battlemages and spellswords, dark brotherhood can give special training for Nightblades, Assassins and Poisoners, Thieves guild can have work work for merchants fences, acrobats, picpockets and alchemists

The way how Character Advancement work is various in Ultima, it not the same as TES uses,
http://ultima.wikia.com/wiki/Character_Advancement



http://ultima.wikia.com/wiki/Classes
http://ultima.wikia.com/wiki/The_Companions_of_the_Avatar
Avatar has class Avatar and can chose all its example of commoner what will be used in Skyrim, all other characters have different classes and advance in different way, if I remember well in Ultima IX we must chose starting class for Avatar also via cards Taro what give us gypsy fortune-teller, Ultima IX is closer to TES then previous Ultima games.

Agreed. Daggerfall had no Birthsigns and it's character creation was far more versatile. That said they haven't really replaced it with anything.

After Ultima 6 there were no classes at all, you couldn't even choose your starting stats in Ultima 7.

Classes return in Underworld and Ultima 9.

... there's a reason why nobody likes 9...

No you are wrong nobody likes 9 not because of classes, don't try tie classes to this because Ultima 9 was bad in other aspects and classes is not main ones.
Game was heavy bugged and unoptimized, dialogues system become reduced, dungeons become small, party was axed from game and overall game become like Ultima 7 ported on SNES in 3D, less classical Ultima game series traits more Legend of Zelda stuff, if not take in account bugs Ultima 9 was good game but not like other games in series, players receive game not like they hope to see and thats was end of single player Ultima series.
I fear if Skyrim will take this way and like Arx Fatalis before become Dark Messiah, or Ultima IX in compare to other games of series.

I would like to know how exactly are Birthsigns "restrictive"

Haven't I said it quite some time by now?

By default Birthsigns are useless, at most only useful at the beginning, but even that is overexaggeration.

Now it could be fixed by making them matter more, with real uniqe strenghts and crippling weaknesses. But picking those at the beginning blindly would be a pretty bad idea.

IN COMES THE "HOW CHARACTER CREATION SHOULD BE DEEP WITH LONG TERM CONSEQUENCES".
Go on, do it! I don't care anymore... :confused:

Well thats the problem really.
Youve said it quite a lot. You have just never supported your argument with anything.
Please tell me how an atronarch does not play fundamentally different from a lord?