That still doesn't answer how they are "restrictive"...just that they are useless......

why am I asking this question? because Dragon born who's never gone over a Paragraph in any of his responses (with good reason) chose to dance around that statement instead of elaborating, so i wanted to know how exactly are they restrictive? it doesnt take more than a paragraph to state that...and Im not going to waste space making a whole other thread


I just want to know if there is any basis behind such Rhetoric

Atronach and maybe Apprentice is a kind of an exception on this though...

The rest of them are pretty forgettable.

They could always implement something like the doomstones for those missing spells. I for one will miss the Ritual birthsign

There were signs that helped beginners and there were signs that were fun for an advanced player to toy with, such as the atronarch. Altmer atronarch on highest difficulty = not one mistake.
And then there were signs just for a preferred playstyle.
I liked them and they did add to the game.
I hope that besides race there will be other starter differences, otherwise it would be boring and a step back.

Ideally I would like to see a Daggerfall system of bonuses offset by weaknesses.

CHARACTER CREATION SHOULD BE DEEP WITH LONG TERM CONSEQUENCES.

I still advocate Daggerfall's advantages/disadvantages system. It would really bring about the best of both worlds - people who want to change their character at will or are uncertain about their build don't have to even use them, whilst it would be the simplest way to place self-imposed restrictions on your character's options and development for those who wish to do so. As I and others have stated, the appeal of having attributes and more diverse skills is that you can commit yourself to one thing, and be complacent with it - again, I bring up the notion of a warrior focused on axes having his weapons break in a dungeon and having that added excitement and challenge of having to either be resourceful (i.e. fortify your sword skill and loot one off an enemy) or high-tailing it out of there.

I can still pretend to myself, "oh, my character will melt if he even equips a sword" but it's not the same. Being able to simply outright limit or stunt certain abilities at character creation, as in Daggerfall, would be the ideal and most direct method to create specialized characters, instead of having to (in MW/OB) specifically avoid certain abilities/attributes, or (in Skyrim) starting off as a clean slate, and then grinding with axes for 10 levels so that you can finally get to a point in your skills where you can act as if your character was always that specialized.



Doing anything in a game blindly is a bad idea. That's the nature of games! Is it "a bad idea" to run into a dragon fight with five health left? Is it "a bad idea" to kill questgivers? Yes. I don't see how this is any different. We want to assume that Bethesda's demographic is high-brow enough to realize this. Perhaps character creation should have been more properly documented in the past games as even the manuals don't mention some of the little nuances in the game mechanics. But I definitely don't get what's wrong with having to actually do some of your planning before starting the game. :confused:

Most computer gamers use the save game to maximise their playing ability. Anytime something goes wrong, they return to a saved game and replay it until they get it right. The final history of their game looks like an endless streak of lucky breaks and perfect choices.

Role-playing is not about playing the perfect game. It is about building a character and creating a story. Bethesda Softworks has worked very hard to make The Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall a game that does not require players to replay their mistakes. All adversity can be overcome, excepting only the character's actual death. In fact, you will never see some of the most interesting aspects of the game unless you play through your mistakes.

If your character dies, gets locked in a dungeon, or some other truly catastrophic event takes place, by all means return to your last saved game and replay it. However, if your character is caught pickpocketing, if a quest goes wrong, or some other mundane mishap occurs, let it play out. You may be surprised by what happens next.

--Daggerfall Manual

That manual forgot to mention what happens if you want to play a spellcaster, but forget to set the magicka multiplier...

With bad decisions during gameplay, you could still get some interesting happenings, but with a bad character, you would only get a weak character who gets stuck at one point, and just generally not fun to play...

Documentations wouldn't help much, unless they're full gaming guides about optimal character creation.

Well thats your opinion on fun factor for play and it's quite good for normal game if you don't want such feature thats not mean other also must stay at your level of challenge, some one want more interesting games, and don't fear make mistakes or like have characters with traits what not strictly beneficial, why they also need such overprotection?
There is must be option for them also.
There is an picture thats make it more visual for you
http://diceofdoom.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/dwarfy.png
You stay in first category with as you fear of mistakes and changes, I stay it next one and there is difference mods allow me play even more interesting and fun game wile you will stay at the same level, since mods are not available for consoles there must be option for other gamers who feel self more experienced and want more challenge from game to receive greater portion of Fun, game must provide such options, and such option was before why we forced to play in less interesting game if some one incapable to thats or fears something?

I really don't understand this argument. It seems people essentially want Daggerfall with good graphics.
If the Daggerfall system was better in your opinion, here's an idea. Go play Daggerfall.

If they made everything identical in each game it would stagnate and die. Changing aspects of character creation is something that helps to keep the game fresh and interesting. All the "old" players on here seem to think that things are being removed. I don't see this at all, Bethesda is simply changing it. Different isn't necessarily less.
I mean with Oblivion, half of the stats become redundant after you get to about level 20. "Oh yay, I get to add to the three stats relevant to me..."

The Birthsigns are even more redundant.
I don't think I've ever really considered them when making a character. The current systems of development are such that you can pick a birth sign at random and never ever worry about it.

I think the new systems represent a "Time and Effort" kind of deal. Meaning if you put the time and effort into the character you can have EXACTLY what you want, instead of some half hearted compromise.

My opinion anyway.
For the record I've played and completed both Morrowind and Oblivion.

That's somewhat disappointing but shouldn't detract to much from enjoying the game.

Really, the only important things they did was level up attributes or magicka (their spells could easily be surpassed by much stronger ones later on). Since attributes are out and magicka can be raised on level-up, I'd say they're gone.

So basically no one can come up with a Reason (that makes sense) as to how Birthsigns are Restrictive, kk nex time I read that I'll calk it up to Rhetoric

They're not restrictive, they're just redundant.
Imagine your star sign and you're done.

Come on, birthsigns are gone, get over it.

I've already said it, not my problem that you couldn't understand.


There seems to be a misunderstanding. Also that picture is false, that's not how fun in Dwarf Fortress work.

I was talking about crippling decisions AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE GAME, where if you do wrong, you have no choice but to start over. I have no problem with consequences later in the game, most of the time I even tend to roll with them...

I could bring up examples I had with other RPGs where I had to start over, because I couldn't get past a certain area because my character was too weak pretty much from the beginning (then again, one of them was Gothic, which doesn't even have character creation, so what do I know...)



Actually, I think I went into this the wrong way. I shouldn't argue how no/limited character creation is better because it's not. It's a different design, again, a different take on the same thing. Both of them have their ups and downs and it all ends up in personal preference.
So ultimately, why don't we have birthsigns?
Because Bethesda decided to make a more classless system where your actions will decide your class rather than your choices at the beginning, and birthsigns would go against this. Races could be made class neutral, but birthsigns... not really...
Why? Because that's the idea they came up with...
Will this make Skyrim less of an RPG? No, I've already showed other RPGs that did the same, or similar.
Will this be better? I don't know, maybe? Probably? I personally like it.
Don't like it? Too bad, mod it or play another game...

Bukee all you said was how they are useless that's it....:facepalm:

I'm under the impression that birthsigns were restrictive in that it forced a players hand to choose what they wanted to be at birth. TES is about you are what you do, even more so now that classes are gone. Birthsigns contradicted that, and gave the character an ability/bonus that would mostly suit one of the three archtypes.

And so, the birthsigns were removed in favor of the perk design. The perk tree's are constilations, and it'll be like the stars are guiding our way as we grow, rather than us being born under one constilation and being held to that, unless a doomstone said otherwise.

Weither they were useful or not, or could have been improved isn't the point, at least to me. They were removed because they clashed with the character development that TES has always tryed to give the player. I don't think the devs want the player to choose what they'll be at the beginning. I think they would rather have the character grow into their class, rather than choose it at the beginning. Not because its kinder to new players, but its less clunky.

Its less clunky in that you simply grow into your role, rather than picking it at birth and being stuck with that even if you grow away from where you started.

Why do I have to imagine everything while I didn't have to in previous games? Sure I can roleplay without any problems. But why do I now have to imagine every single thing while previous games recognized them?
Something that sums up my thoughts about Skyrim so far; For every step they go forward they take two steps back.

I'm so happy I don't fall into that line of thought!

Previous games recognized them?

Nobody ever mentioned your birthsign in Morrowind, and in Oblivion only the Emperor said something when you've chosen it.
So again, we pretty much lost nothing of significance.

Picture is used as example and not related to Dwarf Fortress, it illustrate my opinion on different modes for Skyrim normal mode for players like you who don't like difficult challenges and fear to cripple game for self from beginning and hardcoe mode for experienced player who already play game at last one time and want more interesting challenge for self as well there is illustration of modding at last tab when you have fun from challenge in difficult modding of game, creating and improving features and then have more fun the all others have, thats like looks modded TES game.
Besides I think you are wrong about Dwarf Fortress, since it completely different with your vision of game what comfortable, Dwarf Fortress is not comfortable but it so interesting in details thats make play it even if thats hard for beginners, http://nukezilla.com/2010/04/06/losing-is-fun-an-interview-with-dwarf-fortress-developer-tarn-adams/
so your argument is invalid.


By your word Birthsigns was so crippling decision for the beginning of game and on same time you say thats Birthsigns was redundant thats does not compute,
how Atronach and Apprentice are crippling and redundant at same time when they effects is visible during all game,
magicka bonuses from Birthsigns become redundant in Oblivion because devs make bad decision to make intelligence work as only magicka increase and as well remove Fortify Maximum Magicka x INT spell effect replacing it with plain magicka bonus what become redundant in fast way, better if they keep both initial bonus and leveling with character not stay at the same level during all game session. .

You talking about mistakes of traits chose in way like they given to by forced random, you by self chose Birthsigns, you read informative description and see consequences if such trait is crippling for you , you just take another thats suits better for your game experience you want start as sorcerer but you fear take The Apprentice because of magic weakness or fear take at beginning of game The Atronach because of Stunted Magicka then you have option take The Mage what don't have such consequences and have only bonuses if you don't like thats what The Mage Fortify Magicka 50 points on Self thats and still you don't want consequences form greater powers then you power leveling munchkin, if you think thats The Mage Fortify Magicka 50 points on Self become redundant thats problem of flawed implementation not of traits by self, in morrowind The Mage have Fortify Maximum Magicka 0.5x INT just think how it can be helpful to have without consequences at half more Magicka then other mages have from one point of invested intelligence, yes Birthsigns was flawed in Oblivion in much greater way then they was in Morrowind and instead of really simple fixing of them devs decide axe full system of traits completely, what are illogical decision this are,

I give you different example what you understood much better
Daggrfall system of advantages and disadvantaged was similar to spellmaking Daggerfall was bugged much and devs decide do not repair old system and replace them with
Unique ( have visual text descriptions and nice picture just like unique spells in Skyrim with different visuals not balls of light),

Unchangeable (you cannot change during game Birthsigns or it effects but effects can scale by self if charter increase governed by them parameter like intelligence for Fortify Maximum Magicka)
Skyrim magic system does not allow spellmaking instead you able to increase power of spell by leveling skills, with perks or with charging magicka

Birthsigns in limited number of combinations 13 Birthsigns versus large number of of advantages and disadvantages combinations of various effects
85 unique spells and reduced number of spell effects even form Oblivion ones is here

Then they release oblivion where many flaws was done, like redundant and in the same time by your words to game crippling Birthsigns, and then they decide remove Birthsigns completely in Skyrim
What if so praised by you magical system will also removed in next game just because of of few flaws in implementation or be reduced to Fable level and still crippling for morons who try use arcane arts but roll a barbarian and then removed from next game completely with all magic from game?
Now you understand the problem?

The same was done with equipment variability, for example from all marksman weapons only bows left while problem was so small and easy fixable, what will be next warriors will left only with long swords but well implemented (100% still require fixing with mods, since bows was lame in Oblivion even if devs says thats bows now awesome) or enchanting system what become grayed shade of past, by word of devs now balanced but in true become even more imbalanced then before, attributes another example and such example so large number thats make me feel about mockery of devs on players
I dont want such procrustean solutions in my favorite series when there is better ways to make something work instead of axing, since axing doesn't give anything good at all if there was something flawed but still in game thats can be fixed with mods in easy way, if something axed thats cannot be fixed easy and will be really difficult task until modders will have enough resources.


Oh well then why you projecting your unsuccessful game experience for other games on game what still in development and have great modding support to fix such problems in easy way, you understood thats your laments for devs make changes in game, while they prefer fixing something by axing it?
Besides gothic was on of old school RPG and if you you think thats was to hard for you thats your own problem and not concern TES at all, I play Gothic and found fun in challenges you play and cry about difficulty shame on you.



Thats wrong how chosen traits can form birthsigns can be against something and races thats also have similar traits are not?
Devs again use procrustean solution because unable fix really small mistakes and flaws, and you justifies their laziness I'm sure M'aiq the Liar will say you big thanks for thats.
Your opinion doesn't have fortified arguments, bring them on into discussion.


Yes it will since there is already too much was axed, Skyrim still be RPG but quality will be lowered again, you show other RPG what have nothing with TES now show me TES game.


:clap:
You like half baked cakes like Oblivion, too bad I don't like them, and why I need do the work of quality control dept of BGS, patch their mistakes, work as PR dept and popularize their games for long times, why I need design and test features for them, all such work must be payed and I want from them only one payment from them: quality game full of possibilities, oh well I founding them with my money as regular customer, I deserve for quality and finished products does not?

Well does common man from street know your Zodiac sign?

You know why Emperor said something when you've chosen it?
Because he see you in his dreams, thats was divination I think prophet or fortuneteller can say something about your birthsign, its just another variable and can be done in realy easy way if need.

:clap:

Dude... chill the [censored] down...

Have you even tried to understand what I was trying to say?
In Oblivion and Morrowind they are redundant and forgetabble. Exception would be the Atronach and the Apprentice (I think the Lord too) because they come with weaknesses, but even amongst them the Atronach is the most noticeable.
If they would improve it by making the effect more permanent and noticeable you could end up with an ability you would never use, and if it comes with a weakness, it's even worse.

But whatever, in my experience traits kinda lose their charm after the first few hours and later on they might become an annoyance, or you just find a workaround and everything is back to normal...

Because "informative description" tells you everything right?
Those descriptions are nothing compared to real game experience. Yes you might think getting more fire resistance for ice weakness would be nice, but the descripiton forgets to mention that there are hardly any enemies with fire attacks and a lot of enemies use ice attacks.

No, but I don't care.
Just another "everything will be dumbed down" conspiracy...


Yes, you are such better RPG player than me, I get it, congrats.

One bane of nearly every RPG game is that you can screw it up from the very beginning.

Want a TES example? Daggerfall.

Again: Birthsigns, background traits and whatnot tend to have a bigger effect than race.

But whatever, they could work on making them class neutral. But they won't. Why? Because they rather work on something else, something more important like, the game itself, not just the beginning.


How do you measure RPG quality?


Yeah, Skyrim totally looks like a halfassed game, they barely even worked on them.

Did you missed the whole "personal preference" thing?

Gah, I'm just talking to a wall... I'm done with this, just get to page 11 already...

So race chose is OK and while Birthsigns restrictive, such three archtypes will be in all roles what you play, the strong, the smart, the agile thats why they archtypes, oh well as option in hardcoe mod it can work as god chose in Newerwinter Nights, so you can do not chose it and born under uncertain sign.


Well birthsigns was traits, traits and perks are different layers of mechanic, besides Birthsign Stone powers not replace the birthsign and birthsign power chosen as the beginning of the game, so in such cases constilation will also work with Birthsign dont forget also thats three constilation are Guardians so all Birthsign can be under their protection, only The Serpent is outsider and Serpent only one Birthsign what moves so Serpent can come to Nirn in form of Alduin the world eater, since serpent also try always consume other Star Signs and Guardians protect them from Serpent.
Look at Alduin's Wall
http://www.gameinformer.com/p/skyrim_wall.aspx
There is three figures in center on of them is Mage with torch it resembles the statue in Oblivion so first of Guardians The Mage can be Magnus, there is interesting text at imperial library

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/soft-doctrines-magnus-invisible
Serpent bound to shifting stones just like in trailer, dragon bound to noble signs can refer to noble blood of dragonborns.
Then who are two other figures at wall also?
Who are The Warrior and who are The Thief?
So Birthsign can be in game since guardians protect them if only The Serpent does not consume them already.


But traits can work well with perks and skills and classes with new perks system is easy to be done in good way, why not give at last option for others?
Besides what difference will be between starting breton warrior and breton mage?
They will be equal? then how about starting spells?

Then why there cannot be option for thats who want start game as not commoner who are novice of in all skills but as apprentice in cost smaller initial progression in non profile skills?
Just option, there always was option create custom class or chose predefined now custom class is forming during game, classes can be done as chose of few low level perks in few skills in cost of reduced others.
Just leave such option if so need put them into hardcoe mode, or leave possibility to mod them.

Explain this please and I will understood you better.

How making something permanent and and noticeable can end up with an ability you would never use? I see there an logical problem, first half of argument does not compute with second one.

All birthsigns from below are magical and fortify maximum Magicka in scale 50% 150% and 200% thats visible changes since scaled not starting Magicka only but all next investment also during game so mages with 100 intelligence will end up with different Magicka at end
The Mage
Fay - Fortify Maximum Magicka 0.5x INT
The Apprentice
Elfborn - Fortify Maximum Magicka 1.5x INT, Weakness to Magicka 50%
The Atronach
Wombburn - Spell Absorption 50%, Fortify Maximum Magicka 2.0x INT, Stunted Magicka
Weakness, it's its not even worse like you say since you have options and at the same time there is possibility ti use more powerful birthsigns but such powers come in cost of consequences, thats gradation form easy to normal and hard, if you feel thats you are experienced enough you can take suitable level for you
With great power, comes great responsibility.


Thats your opinion man, I think thats hard to forget about Fortify Maximum Magicka bonus from birthsigns and Stunted Magicka thats not regenerate by self.


What there is no ice weakness effects in birthsigns as well as elemental resistance to fire there is only The Lord fire weakness what is changed from 100% to 25% in Oblivion, such things what you talk are more suit for races since only races at beginning can change such parameters but you say thats races is OK, you again make logical mistake


Oh well I use understandable for you anology and you just don't listen, and say something about conspiracy,http://farm1.static.flickr.com/113/314286910_a6bcee9506.jpg and you say me thats

Oh well try again

Great example congrats, really big and interesting system of advantages and disadvantageous too bad there is too much bugs and too powerful for beginning advantages, as well there is also level scaling sometimes go wild, and modding support is very limited to fix something, I hope Daggerfall XL project will help much since it will allow better modding support.

Why not?
Not all peoples equal in world, we all different not a clones since attributes out traits only one things thats can make difference between two charterers of same race at beginning, besides traits can also help for better difference between races.
Well done traits can work during all game session, why only at beginning?


For me quality of RPG based on variability of possibilities, reducing variability reduce possibilities, when features removed completely without really good reason thats really bad.


Thats your words, all TES games have advantages and disadvantages, but good features must stay if they was flawed they need to be fixed levels scaling was fixed then why need axe traits if they was flawed, real critical aception can be done after play, at last Skyrim will fix flaws of good Oblivion features and maybe return interesting features of previous games.