No, you're not even trying.

Screw it, I'm tired of your elitist attitude anyway.

same reason they took out "classes" , they want you to determine and make your character as you play, not right at the start.


Don't expect racial bonuses differences to be game breaking either.

IMO thats a great decision, because each character later on ends up being very unique rather than the same like in TES3/4 (well for me). They sorta flipped the formula.

Oblivion -> lvl1 Unique ----> Same (lvl 25) [can easily max every skill and perks, nothing sets you apart, can get high enough in each attributes for your char to play the same as the last]

Skyrim -> lvl1 Same -----> Unique (lvl 50) [crazy amount of perks, double the lvls, and perk cap - more customization]

As you wish I will not insist on further discussion, maybe at next time when you will be prepared.


Well thats interesting but why not
Skyrim -> lvl1 Unique -----> Unique (lvl 50) [crazy amount of perks, double the lvls, and perk cap - more customization] + starting traits at the beginning thats increase diversity between starting characters?

this. the only birthsign that will be missed is the atronach since it was the only one that really changed gameplay.

A level one Orc being exactly the same as a level one Altmer is not 'great'.
Its horrible.
There are no crazy amount of perks. There are 250, 50 for each character. I rpedict at least 10% of them will be useless. They are on/ off switches, hardly creative or roleplay intensive.
If Im good with an axe now I have to get a perk to get bleed damage, instead of just getting it for being good with an axe. There isnt even an axe skill anymore.
There is no way that 50/ 250 is greater than 8^100.
Its also nonsense that each character ended up with 100 in everything.
Many, many a game of Oblivion I have played and I dont think I ever had one high level character with athletics, acrobatics or speed over 70. I focus on other skills and attributes.
My one Altmer could be vastly different from my other Altmer though. Birthsigns played a large part in that as it allows for different playstyles on the same race.
All races being the same but for how they look is really the worst notion I have encountered here besides the petition to remove the ability to play on after the main quest.

No, races aren't restrictive. The bonus' races give you can be overcome to create unique characters. The things birthsigns give on the other hand are often only useful for specific styles of play, or were simple bonus's that didn't add anything to the game.

There's a difference between chosing to play as a khajiit and choosing the theif birthsign. With the khajiit, you can naturally grow from a theif to a knight, even though the racial bonus favor being a theif. With the theif birthsign, it can't be overcome, because that birthsign will always stay stagnant, unless you track down a doomstone. It'll always be the same theif birthsign, even if you later on choose to switch to warrior. Choosing a khajiit doesn't mean you want to be a theif, but choosing the theif birthsign means you do.

And that's where the restrictions lie. A race can be anything they want, but the birthsign is like a tattoo you get when you're young, and can't get rid of when you're older.



But that's how games work. You don't start as a good anything, you're a commoner. A nobody. The past doesn't matter. You're reborn once you regain your freedom from whatever was holding you. For instance, I could believe that I once worked as a guard in Bruma, but the game won't realise that. The game can't account for all the things we could have been before the game begins. I think its a good thing to leave open as many rp options as possible, but it wouldn't be good game design if we could name ourselves a master swordsman before Skyrim even begins. In order for the game to be a game, we have to start as weak nobodies. Different starting stats for races is about all I would allow, because any more than that takes away from the gameplay. Why say you were a good swordsman before you were a prisoner, and give yourself 20 free levels of swordsmanship?

That's 20 levels you can't experience for yourself now.

That fact that Birthsigns came with both inherent strengths and weaknesses is what I liked about them (and why I feel that removing them is simplifying TES too much). The problem is that too many gamers are not will to have any real consequences anymore. If you want to play OB as a thief, then you need to put a little effort into your character build . . . which means picking a Class and a Birthsign that compliments that type of character. If you change you mind after you're been playing for a while . . . tough . . . you messed up. And the thing is, you can still keeping playing the game as a warrior . . . it will just be harder to do so . . . and it should be, because that's what a consequence is. Without having any consequences for our actions . . . there's no point . . . and there's no learning from our mistakes.


The problem is that in many games, you do not start out as an average character . . . but as an above average character. Fallout 3 is a good example of this: there are 7 Attributes, which can each have a value of 1 to 10 (with 5 being average). And that part is fine. The problem is that you are given 40 points to distribute over these 7 Attributes . . . where 35 points would have resulted in an average starting character.

Creating a unique character does not mean that your character is above average, but that they are specialized . . . with strengths and weaknesses (Goodness, this means yet more limitations . . . which is a good thing). Limitations = character diversity = greater replay value.

My Realism Tweaks changes this to 35 points. With my mod, if you want to have above average Strength, you're going to be below average in something else (like Endurance). Every bonus given in an initial character build should come with an opposing penalty. In Fallout, the Attributes only rarely increase, so they have much greater impact than Oblivion's Class differences.

Not too unhappy about the loss of birthsigns. They were useful in the beginning of the game, but only a few remained useful after that point. In Morrowind I'd always start with the Tower to bust into the warehouse and steal everything, but I didn't use it much beyond that.

The shoudnt remove the birthsigns just make the effects away and make them a part of the story instead of the players abillitys in combat etc.
(sry for my bad english )

Make your char choose a sign somewhere in the middle of the storyline. That would, if nothing else, give the player some time to think about what to pick, and to find a way to play.

Lolno. From the in-game book The Firmament:



All the Thief birthsign does is give you a bonus to Agility, Luck, and Speed, it does not dictate that you have to be a thief.

Just to start off, I've come to respect my debates with you more than with anyone else so far. I like your points, though I disagree with many of them. You articulate your concepts well.

At any rate, I agree with you almost completely. I hate Superman. He's indestructible, and it's boring. I don't like video game characters to be like that either. So we are agreed that characters need to have strengths and weaknesses. However, and let's be honest here, we both know that birthsigns are not the only way to do this. I'm not saying that pulling them out will make things better. I'm also not ready to admit that Bethesda is doing it for no reason.




Right, but as many have pointed out, Birthsigns only really have an effect on the first few levels of your character's game play. I do like the idea of a character that ultimately specializes in a particular field, but why would you want to force your players to commit to this before they even begin playing?

The idea that we build our characters as we use them is far more practical for someone that doesn't know the game very well yet, and it still allows just as much replay value. Play a different style, and you end up with a different character. The only thing it requires is a bit more creativity from the player. Certainly that can't be bad.

And I understand that everyone wants to build a character with a history. I know you want to have past experiences, skills, and abilities to start with. That's fine. I hold out every hope that Bethesda will find a way for that mechanic to be represented. I don't think they need classes or birthsigns to do it.

And that's the problem. Consequences are only fun if you're able to make a rational decision. If you know nothing of the game, how you'll play, or what you need to do, how can forcing someone to make gameplay-altering choices right at the start be considered fun? It's frustrating, because you're being asked questions you don't know how to answer. Especially when you select "wrong", it'll create a character you can't possibly play which makes it even more frustrating.

Birthsigns had the same problem as classes. The game relied on you making a character that accentuated themselves (picking a bithsign, class, race, and gender, that favored each other), or else you couldn't kill a rat. Someone who's just starting the game won't know how anything works, what the game will throw at them, and what the game's expecting of them, and it's completely unfair to ask them to pick at the very beginning. Additionally, the vast majority of those bonuses can be applied as a normal part of character levelling, so nothing is truly lost for players who do know ahead of time what they want to play as... you simply have to work for those initial "bonuses" by playing, instead of being handed them by clicking a box at character creation.

Thanks! That means a LOT to me, as writing out my thoughts is not easy for me. I also respect you very much. I like that you never get personal, or seem to take it personal . . . no matter how much we might disagree on something. I enjoy debates, when they are done in the spirit of mutual respect (and I don't handle personal attacks very well).


My biggest concern is the reason that Todd gave for cutting Classes (which is what I quoted earlier). Based on what he said, I have to conclude that any inherent strengths and weakness that are part of your initial character build are going to be VERY minor. I hope this is not true.



Morrowind was my first real RPG. And I was horrible at doing character builds at first (seem my http://amito.freehostia.com/Morrowind/MW01.htm). But I soon got better at it. RPGs like TES should have a learning curve, and that learning curve should be pretty steep. If these RPGs are simplified down to the point where someone brand new to TES will be able to play the game as well as an experienced player, the game ends up losing some of its magic . . . especially for the more seasoned TES players. Morrowind would have not been the same game if it had been designed for me (a player with with like no RPG experience). Part of the joy of a game is getting better at it . . . and not having a perfect character build is part of learning what not to do, so that you can try something different next time.

lol!! I remember that little journal! ah mai it was priceless how you thought there would be a headlines about a Woodelf girls body found in the dumpster :lmao: ah greatness greatnes sindead, thank you for that.


anyway, as stated...Birthsigns don't dictate what you should play, they give you based on lore blessings or curses and it is the players responsibility to address them, not ****** and moan about how they f'd up their class trying to metagame, issues in character were because of Major/Minor skills people picked and level scaling, THATS IT, whos fault is it that they did not atleast read the **** descriptions for the characters? Beth didnt put them there for its health....

again another example Classes/Major-Minor/ GONE because people complained about them and didnt just play the Game...and now because of that lost Birthsigns and attributes are gone.

the CONSTALLATIONS are still in there, intertwined with the Glorified tech Tree sure, but BIRTHSIGNS are not in.

It very much did dictate how you should play (it, your class, and the racial/gender bonus all did). Pick a birthsign, class and race that favor a warrior, then try playing as a magic-user or thief. You can't do it effectively.

You needed to align all your bonuses to be able to get a good character, but someone not familiar with the game may not know that. Particularly when the concept of the series is to 'be who you play', it lends to the idea of the starting bonuses be just that.. bonuses, not requirements. You no longer have a lot of starting bonuses, and instead, you have to earn them. Isn't that what people want? To not be handed pluses and bonuses simply by checking boxes you didn't earn? Wouldn't being handed starting bonuses be "dumbing down" for people who just want to start off with a good character and not have to work for a good character?

I'll miss the Ritual birthsign, I loved my Turn Undead spell

I could and have. It's not the quickest way possible to get a specialized character, but it's far from impossible.

I have no other reaction to this crap except an overwhelming WTF?

They really want us to start off with no character definition at all don't they?

I know! Let's get rid of Races next! And then Gender! We don't need that!

Take a deep breath. I know you're upset, but you sound like a lunatic.

I never saw the point of birthsigns anyway. Perks will make me forget all about them.

only 4 comments left, better make them worth it.

My 2 cents, I'm glad that we're going to have a different system in place, however I'm glad that there are modders in the world for those who enjoy the PC and a different game then provided.

There's no attributes either? Where is everything going and how am I supposed to be building a character if there's nothing to build?

I know but the birth signs pretty much ARE perks, yes?

There's plenty to build, you just do it as you play instead of being asked questions at the start. You have 18 skills (which you aren't locked into using a specific set early on due to requisite birthsign and class bonuses) split across three archetypes that you can mix'n'match as you will, and can pick 50 out of 280 perks (which affect things like how much bleed damage you do with an axe, how deadly you are with a dagger, how silently you move, etc) which depend on your level in particular skills. The game will also recognize it... so instead of getting the same quests regardless if you're using mage skills or warrior skills, certain quests may only trigger or be modified depending on your level in certain skills. I wouldn't be surprised if certain alliances have some gameplay effect, either. Some quest givers/targets do depend on who you already know, and can change depending on who you kill.

Your character will become rather unique as you play.

The whole point of an RPG like this, or rather one of this nature done properly is that the character is unique all the bloody way through. What the hell was my character doing for the first 16 plus years of his/her life?