If Elder Scrolls goes the way Mass Effect and Dragon Age have done; simplified so much it's an RPG in name only, I'll get really pissed.

From what I've read the only major simplifications are Attributes and Spell-making, so I'm not expecting it to be completely dumbed down. (Although actually I don't think they've ever completely said "Attributes are gone")

I really hated attributes in TES3-4, having to level up only certain abilites so you could get 15 attribute points was AWFUL.

Removing them is not the solution though, I think they should go back to Daggerfall's system; level up and you get to distribute 6 points.

I barely used spellmaking either, but having it was always really cool.

Why do people do this anyway? The point of the whole TES system is to NOT make player look at statistics all the time. Just play it without worrying about every number in it.

You should take a see at the Bioware forums of Dragon Age II, many upset and disappointed people there.

Because, if you were stuck with the stock "world levels with you" thing, and you *didn't* max out your stat gains every level? You got weaker and weaker relative to the enemies as your level went up. Which is entirely not what's supposed to happen as you get "stronger".


I know that in both MW and OB, I've always done that. Made sure to pick a set of tagged skills that weren't my main character focus & were scattered evenly among the stats. And kept a record sheet alongside my keyboard so I could carefully keep track of every single skill gain. Got tedious after awhile.

(Which is why I've tried the Oblivion XP mod the last couple plays. Interesting, but it makes getting any points in minor skills like Athletics or Acrobatics impossible, because you're never going to waste your level-up points on anything but the important skills, and they're also too minor to waste your limited NPC training on... So, not very ES like, in that you only end up with a few leveled skills.)

Most of my attribute levelings were a 3x and two 2x's. Also was not a combat oriented character. And an Altmer thus weak against magic.
Still kicked every enemy's BEEP without much trouble, no matter the type. Equipment is far more important then those stats... and more fun to manage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMcVZQI6ybw /irony

Simplifying isn't always bad. Usually it is but not always.

But I believe Skyrim will be at least more complex than Oblivion. You know with the more reactive combat system they've been talking about. Also the lore seems to be taking a big leap with them creating fricking language and alphabet.

Cute.


...the thing that gets me though, is someone in one of the comments referring to Deus Ex as a "famous RPG license". :blink:

That's your personal opinion, as a lot of people (including myself) would hugely disagree. Oblivions gameplay, in my opinion, was a huge step backwards in most aspects, excluding Marksmanship and stealth, in which it was a huge step forward.
The point I'm making, you obviously like carebear toddler proof gameplay while others like hardcoe gameplay that requires you to actually think. It's all personal opinion.
I really don't want them to dumb the game down, while others encourage it. :shrug:

Good point :goodjob:
I can understand that people's taste/patience/spare time have changed, but I still hope that once in a while the stat-driven rpg freaks will get their share of massive deep old school rpg. I'm not desperate yet, although the signs are not good if Bioware themselves sank that low.

Yes I don't mind more simple gameplay.

It's the complexity to story, dialogue, quests, interactions with npc's, lore and feel to game.
On this simplicity is becoming again the new goal.
From Morrowind to Oblivion, ME to ME:2, DA:O to Awakenings and now DA:2 (which I've only played the demo of. ) it's a pattern that has been repeated since Black Isle failed.

So far only CDProjekts the Witcher and to some extent FO:NV has reversed this trend.
If the Witcher 2 is at least as good as the first and not simplified in content I'll say that is the one company that others should learn from and seek to emulate.

All this said, until Skyrim is released or more infomation on characters and stories is leaked to the public by Beth.
We won't know which direction they've headed in.

...which MW never required either. It had more skills and all, but never did it require you to stop and think about what to do next... with neither class.

hi just adding my two cents..im new..oblivion svcked..sorry. i am a HUGE elder scrolls fan and loved morowind ,maybe im a simpleton but oblivion didnt have that same feel..but i am open minded and am willing to try new and different things..i wonder if we'll be able to levitate?

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Deus Ex is an RPG and a famous cult classic as far as I recall. :/ (Maybe Action/RPG)

Huh. Guess I've never seen it referred to as an RPG. Interesting.

(Of course, I never really paid much attention to the first one, wasn't that "into" FPS's at the time, and that's what it seemed to be called.)

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That's never a good direction to take a discussion. Seriously.

Todds use of the word "superfluous" has me a little worried...
Sure, there are some things that can be removed to make the game better, but more often than not removing features means less to do.

Morrowinds enchanting system was far from perfect, but it had more possibilities and thus kept my attention longer than Oblivions enchanting system...

Stop falling prey to the "Because it's old, it's better" (AKA: "Appeal to Tradition Fallacy" and "Looking through rose-tinted glasses"). I am a very avid fan of both Morrowind and Oblivion. Standards change throughout the years, no matter the game. Back when Morrowind came out, did you think that you should be able to dual-wield? No, you didn't, because such a thing was very rare back then. (The only example I can think of off the top of my head is Goldeneye 007 for N64, but I may be wrong even about that) Were there things Morrowind did right? Of course. Were there things Oblivion did right? Yup. Did both games do some things wrong? Of course. Then again, there's really no such thing as a "perfect game". There's always something that someone will complain about.

But just because a game is older does not always mean that it's better than its successor. Times and standards change.

And just because times and standards have changed don't mean automatically for the better.

again all Oblivion did was, add better graphics, weapons always hit, better animations, everything else was a step back according to getting it to a wider audience and increasing the fanbase. how about we keep what makes these games an RPG in whatever old sense you've come to stereotype it leave it there so that those interested can delve into it, and those that are not just play instead of turning my fully playground expanse into a single see-saw

Hmm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_Ex_(video_game)#Role-playing_elements
Action role playing game.
You've never played it?
Should try it, one of the best games I've ever played.
Was a long time ago so don't remember if the writing was award-winning but I remember it to be quite interesting anyway.

Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpEoLH0cUSw
My god the graphics are horrendous, still an awesome game though.

I don't think people like some older games because of "tradition". Quitethe contrary, I think people like newer games because they usually improve.
Halo: Reach is much better than Halo 3, and Halo 1 is only better (in my opinion) because of the story and atmosphere, and probably nostolgia.

I like Morrowind more than Oblivion because Oblivion is shallow. The combat is more fun, but everything else isn't. And Oblivion was a huge step back in terms of equipment, as in there was no variation at all.

And now that I think of it, Skyrim is improving combat (which is honestly needed) but cutting back elsewhere. That sounds familiar...

For those looking to get a decently integrated action/rpg experience, check out Divinity 2. No, it's not the best. No, the combat is still pretty simplistic (but the stats matter). The story.... Needs some help, but it's traditional fantasy, not much you can do.
However, The armor/weapon management system is pretty well done, especially when it comes to adding stat charms and enchantments. It's traditional in the sense you "level up" and distribute points into a set of base stats, but they also augment an additonal, yet simple set of stats. There are skill points/trees as well. I won't go into great detail of the game, but it's worth it for those who enjoy looting and using said items found to help enhance the character build. While it has open ended gameplay, it's best to get a 4th of the story done before truly exploring.

Anyways, like many threads have been in the past, we will always see who likes what game better in the TES frachise over another, and we lose sight of what these forums are here for. gamesas has these forums to see what people want. If we keep on topic long enough, maybe they'll read the threads more often. AND respond!
I know for a fact that many people want a deep and inviting stat/armor/weapon system. They also want a deep and engaging storyline. Each stat should in some way augment another, where the story should do the same.
Simplifying an RPG to the point that many developers are going towards is, in a way, killing the idea behind an RPG. The "R" used to stand for ROLL (not ROLE) which meant the combat system was based around a simulated dice-roll. Loot was also based around this, and so were stats of found items. Someone said earlier, times change, and so do viewpoints, and this is true. You can change how the mechanics work without killing the base idea, but sadly, many companies don't see this as a viable option anymore. This is what I hope to accomplish with my own development team.
However, Skyrim WILL be a good TES game. I guarantee that. Will it meet the expectations of the hardcoe fanbase? We won't know until 11/11/11. I personally think we're going to see a hybrid of MW and OB, but opinions aren't always the truth.

Honestly, looking at the posts and topics on the Skyrim boards, I don't blame Beth for making their games more simple...

No psychic characters, please. My character should not be able to automatically detect the closest nearby dungeon, cave, or landmark. This feature in Oblivion infuriated me, since it's the ultimate example of hand-holding. Might as well just take away the outside world entirely and have us navigate cursors on a map, with every possible destination clearly marked for our convenience.

Dumbing down at it's finest.

I just don't want another PC game to be ruined trying to make it more console friendly. If it's spoiled because of something original they try to do, that's not so bad.