First off, my PC in Oblivion will never do KoTN, she is a murderous thief. So I have no experience with the gameplay of KoTN, merely the frustration of having to see it sitting there in my quests to do list, and knowing that due to Essential flagged NPCs in Anvil, I've no way to kill them and break the quest.
As for price, I bought KoTN and SI retail, secondhand, as a pair, so I never needed to pay fool refail price for either, let alone the per item DLC price for what was in KoTN retail. In the main, the DLC character quests are just variations on a theme to get a new Player Home up and running. KoTN is the only one that sounds as though it was written as a proper class quest.

In terms of Bethesda releasing bugware DLC, you do not seem to have played the Morrowind DLC: Siege at Firemoth.
Waiting for a fanmade patch to attempt to debug what Bethesda caused with their patches that introduce new bugs is par for the course.

Did KoTN break things in plain, stock, Oblivion? I know that Mehrune's Razor; Frostcrag Spire Wizard's Tower; and Battlehorn Castle Fighter's Stronghold all did.

Jenifur Charne

Its a fact that 85% of casual gamers who play Oblivion are Male Human Race warriors who use swords and shields. Just about every person who plays Oblivion going into it as a new player, always chooses that class and weapon type because its the easiest class to understand and use.

The game should've warned you that doing an evil deed would prevent you from wearing the armor and weapons. From what I remember, I would've had to visit all of the shrines of the Nine again to equip the armor and weapons.

well I wanted to kill the preaching crazy guy if that's what you mean

other than that it was pretty good, although some mods we more EPIC like lost spires :bowdown: and shadowcrest manor :bowdown:

Personally I thought the Knights of the Nine questline was brilliant, and since I got it with GotY I can't really say on the pricing. Although, in terms of DLC i'd prefer large-scale expansions with new areas (ala Shivering Isles and F3 DLC) than just the small little added snippets.

That preaching crazy guy was Talos.

The game should've warned you that doing an evil deed would prevent you from wearing the armor and weapons. From what I remember, I would've had to visit all of the shrines of the Nine again to equip the armor and weapons.

"We can all agree it was rubbish."
- We can all agree that statement was rubbish.
From reading this topic, it seems most people enjoyed KotN, and didn't think it was too overpriced (compared to other DLCs for Oblivion, and DLCs for other games.)

And to you who's comparing SI and KotN content-wise: SI is an expansion, KotN is a DLC!

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And it does seem like Bethesda has learned, as Fallout 3 didn't have the same kind of DLCs as Oblivion (horse armor, tomes, etc), but had DLCs with more content.
But I do agree with most here: Some Expansions > Lots of DLCs


I'd rather not have another game that holds my hand through the entire playthrough.

Getting a little bit sick of this distinction between expansion pack and DLC

"An expansion pack, expansion set, or supplement is an addition to an existing role-playing game, tabletop game or video game. These add-ons usually add new game areas, weapons, objects, and/or an extended storyline to a complete and already released game."

Under this definition both SI and KotN are expansions.

What is DLC? It is what it is, it's downloadable content. Both SI and KotN were downloadable and therefore they are both DLC.

Honestly, why is this so hard?

I Thought it was "ok" but they can do better

They both came in DVD jewel cases on GameStop for the same exact price.

Either that makes them both "expansions" or both are "DLC".

I think it's just easier to say than "the compilation/complete/gold edition that they'll inevitably put out".

Too lazy to pull up my long post detailing the connotative and denotative differences between the two, so I will summarize:

Yes, DLC originally meant DownLoadable Content. However, common usage of the term has caused a connotative meaning of "small additions to a game, regardless of source". An expansion is considered a large amount of new data and a DLC is considered a small amount of new data (language evolves).

I'd agree with this. It was a little too generic for my tastes, but still well worth the download fee.

I find it difficult to complain about pricing when it comes to Bethesda games because for the amount of content they cram into the original game they would be justified in charging 4 times the price of a regular game.

Because content is totally defined by its casing, right? Whatever GameStop that was was very very silly. Everyone knows SI is an expansion and KotN is an "Official Plugin" which, more modernly, is called DLC.

The dislike I have with KoTN is of a different nature.

KoTN was obviously originally meant to be in the game, but was withheld and released as a DLC.
The features of KoTN, and the fact that it is Oblivions temple/ religious faction show this.

So its like buying a washingmachine, but only being able to get the spin cycle seperate, for extra money. Or buying a fridge, but it comes without the little light within, for wich you have to pay extra.
Its ripping the consumer off.

In Skyrim I do not want to see withheld content, released at a later date for extra money.

I know this is most likely a distributor decision and not a developer one, but if anything grinds my gears its that kind of scam.

I'm actually quite the lore purist, but that doesn't change my preferences to gameplay and how mindboggingly boring religious-type content in games is to me. Religion to me (fictional or otherwise) is one of the very things I would detest partaking in both in real life and (especially) in games. If Bethesda had done the right thing, there would be two quest lines in KoTN, one altar grinding quest line and one sabotage quest line.

As much as I love lore accuracy and variety in what lore is expanded on, DLC should be for everyone. The Nine Divines is better kept to books and references.

Also, it was rubbish compared to price. Which is why reading the title of a topic isn't enough to qualify a reply - although I admit it was a strong statement taken out of context.

Language certainly does evolve thanks for the small lesson, however in my experience they have not separated as far as you would suggest. It is still a long shot to not call downloadable content, downloadable content because it's larger. However with respect to expansion, I would accept some alternate definition (though cannot find one) that would separate the two based on size.

You say "withheld" as though they already had it done and finished and were just like "har har let's not put this with the rest." That's not what happened at all. Yes, some game companies do that, but this was before "DLC" was even that common of a term. Oblivion was being packed full of stuff and they didn't have a lot of time to fit in everything they wanted, they crammed as much in as they could. KotN was released 8 MONTHS after Oblivion. I'd think if they already had it made they would not wait that long to release it.


How hilarious that you say you're a "lore purist" but then detest the Nine Divine and say you don't wish to partake in religion in a video game where gods are undeniably real.

all the more reason to do it.

I always wanted to destroy the nine divines I hope we get an epic quest in some ES game to do it.

Actually, the very nature of DLC makes it perfect for being customized for specific play styles and not being "for everyone". Think of them like toppings on your burger. Everyone gets the same burger and bun (Vanilla game) and then you can add any combination of toppings to customize the burger to your liking. It is essentially the same concept behind modding, only in this case the restaurant is adding the toppings and with modding you or your friend add the toppings once you sit down to eat.

An expansion pack is like a side of fries.

That is a very good point, about the eight months.

I did indeed always think it was witheld from vanilla on purpose. Not for the har har, but a distributor's decision to make it a little more of a money maker.
Because the features that KoTN offers, the means to reduce infamy in particular, and because TES games normally have a religious faction, it always seemed that way to me.

Though the eight months have me question myself.

Thanks for the info

Destroying the Nine Divine would mean destroying Mundus and ending the series forever.

The terminology was originally used by publishers/developers who termed things based on how they sold them (disc, download, etc.). We (the consumer), however could really not care less how the content is distributed. We care about how much content, how fun/finished it is, and how much it costs. We are using the terms invented by the publishers/developers to suit our needs which does tend to create a disconnect between what the publisher/developer says and what we interpret it to mean. Honestly, the publishers/developers need to start using them our way since common usage is impossible to fight against.

What about, simply, an add-on? So, using that word instead, let me rephrase myself:
KotN is an add-on, SI is an expansion.

And then we have another problem, SI also adds to the game, so it would also be an add-on^^
But anyway, everyone knows what I meant