Bethesda messes with my head when it comes to character creation - I enjoy the classic classes but they always seem to have a skill missing or one I don't want - so I often go for a custom class - then after a while - sometime about level 3 - I start thinking what is wrong with this character why can't I seem to get the maximum bonus before levelling up - then my gaming OCD kicks in and i start getting out spreadsheets and working out what i need to do in order to most effectively level my character - when really I just want to go and have fun with them.

For Morrowind I managed to get my game under control and there were some good levelling mods to suit my style so i didn't need to obsess over what to train next - I have Oblivion on console so still chew off my nails at character creation pre-planning the game before even leaving the sewers

I just hope player levelling is a bit more seamless in Skyrim so some of us with OCD can just enjoy the world more

If you want to post in this thread would you please also note whether you to are hung up on the efficient levelling approach or just take it as it comes

I've been on my computer all day today as a distraction while I mash the cast button to raise my restoration. It's taken about six hours to get it from 20 to 87, and it's a specialised skill. I don't mind level planning - I enjoy it even. But for the love of God why was restoration made so hard to level? I have to cast a restoration spell ten times for every one cast of a conjuration spell...

Wut?

Well you know, you could just play the game without making a single chart. You don't have to make the best character you can and maximize attributes; it's not mandatory.

OCD:
Obsessive
Compulsive
Disorder

I would really like one simple fix. Major skill levelups have twice as much effect on attribute modifiers as minor skills. So if I level up blade 4x, heavy armour 3x, block 2x and athletics 1x (common as a fighter), I can get at least a +4 and +5 modifier instead of a +2 and +3. Maybe then players will be encouraged to *gasp* use their major skills instead of their level skills. Still, skills matter more than attributes for the damage you do. It's very possible to be a proper fighter with only decent strength.

That's my main gripe with how leveling occurs. Another one is the huge health enemies get through levelling. I don't mind the rest of level scaling too much, as long as I can get some proper power when I level up.

Yes, thank you. I wasn't sure.

Basically I'm saying it's your problem. Why should a game cater to the needs of a small percentage of players? Thats like saying, "Hey Bethesda, whenever I play TES my ass gets itchy. For your next installment could you make a game that can scratch my ass while I play?"

I don't really see the problem with how BGS does it, whenever you use a skill it raises. I don't see a problem it makes sense since it is as realistic as possible.

Hahaha good anology. That made me laugh. However, you will find that almost everyone has OCD that manifests itself in one form or another, and gamers as a market are notorious for being completionists. It's not like this is one percent of the market we're talking here. I don't have OCD as far as I know, but if I do then it manifests itself most strongly when I play Oblivion. BGS really made a levelling system that begs to be maximised with the +5 attributes, and the fact that unmodded Oblivion's scaling results in an arms race between player and environment just exacerbates the issue.

I hardly think it's unreasonable to request a levelling system that isn't quite so broken and isn't quite so in your face about it when you don't maximise.

Thank you for both taking the heat out of the comment and the nice summary of what I was trying to say in the OP. I don't want to feel like i have to maximise in order to stay ahead of the game - while having played many games with notepads and spreadsheets (Freelancer was a classic for working out the best trade routes) I am just hoping Skyrim does levelling a little different - so it becomes less of a what do I have to do skill wise in order to level up versus what quests/places to explore can i do instead

I understand the problem and I agree it needs to be solved.
As an example, I remember very well in Morrowind where I would stop playing naturally when I got close to level up my character and just go to the trainers to level up my misc. skills to get a maximum +5 bonus to certain attributes before I actually level up.
I don't like doing it this way as it ruins the fun and challenge of the game but sometimes it's difficult not to get carried away and go "OCD".
Thankfully, it's possible to just ignore it and try to play seamlessly and naturally as the game is supposed to be played but it always remains in the back of your head...

http://www.mwmythicmods.com/Gluby/Gluby_CharacterDevelopment_Mods.htm
This explains some of the issues of the leveling system and gives suggestions for mods that alter it.

I do hope this won't be an issue in TES V: Skyrim.

Gamesradar had this as their first point on things they want changed from Oblivion(not bashing Oblivion, I know the leveling system was like this in Morrowind too).

http://www.gamesradar.com/f/the-elder-scrolls-v-what-we-want-to-see/a-20100727104656838025/p-1

The part about being completionist and wantng +5 bonuses is only part of the problem. The other part is how leveling the major skills more(as you would be expected to), means you get less bonuses because your character levels too fast, which is badly designed imo. Hopefully they can come up with a system that still allows you to use skills to level them(very important in an ES game!), but doesn't have this counterproductive character leveling.



PS - there is a mod for Oblivion that keeps track of multipliers for you in a game book, can't remember the name. Made by someone who used to be a well known modder I think.

I think the complaint was about attributes, which would be better if they worked as you described rather than the weird, character-crippling multiplier system.

Levelling and skill progression is...arguably the poorest aspect of the series at large, I'm confident about that.

Truth is, I've gotten good at manipulating the various levelling systems in TES games. I don't consider myself a "power gamer", but I can't stand the feeling that I've created an inefficient build. Iagree that levelling in TES should come easily and naturally to the player - it should make sense. I shouldn't have to subvert the game's systems (i.e. majoring in skills I never use, minoring in my favorites) just to have a powerful character.

I just remember my first half game of Oblivion: I picked the major skills I planned to use most often (duh) and used the heck out of them and left slider on normal difficulty. I levelled like crazy and Kvatch was full of elementals (fire, ice, storm) dremora and clanfear. Took 9000 years because the guards all died instantly and the unkillable guy passed out 20000 times . Great leveling

Bleh... Is it so important to level up perfectly? Just play and have fun. Let the skills grow with you. I never wasted a thought about training the right skills or whatever... It's just distracting from actually playing the game.

Have you read the (very short) thread? Ignoring certain aspects is difficult for some people. Not to mention the system is flawed in some ways.

Bleh... Is it so important to post your opinion that you can't read the thread before you do? Just relax, slow down and take in what others have said. Let their input influence your perspective. I try to never waste a post writing what others have probably written before me... It's just distracting others from any actual valid discussion.

nGCD.........mod that eliminates having to manage levelling altogether.

I do agree that the current system of recieving attribute multipliers upon level-up based on skill usage is ridiculous and often pulls the player out of the game to worry about getting so many multipliers for this attribute or that attribute etc instead of enjoying the game, which, obviously, is more important. I think a leveling mod for Morrowind called Galsiah's Character Development got it right. Instead of worrying about attribute multipliers, levels and the like, your character simply raised skills as usual and attributes raised naturally and in the background. There weren't even any levels, which I found nice.

A. A game shouldn't need mods just to work logically
B. Have some sympathy for us console users

I think it could be interesting with having experience points to level up, but exp. points are tied to your major skills.

You're right; it should not.

I cannot obviously speak on behalf of "squeekers," though I doubt he meant to 'forget the leveling system because mods can always fix it for PC users,' but more suggesting that this is a mod that got it right and its system, or something similar, should be implemented in future titles, as I suggested as well.

I see what you mean, and while I will always stand by what I said, it has now become slightly irrelevant given the context of the discussion. Hmmm :whistling:

I take the levels as they come, I don't worry about efficient leveling, only efficient long term living (i.e. making money). So I usually make Excel spreadsheets on money and stuff. It would be nice if they made something like you said with making the most cash in any situation.

The simple fix for the leveling problem: The game levels you every 10 skill point increases in major skills... instead just have the appropriate attributes increase as the skills do, larger increases for major skills, while still scaling enemies every so many major skill increases..... in fact the MINOR skills should also contribute to gaining levels even though you do not gain as many attribute points per skill increase with them. This way there is more benefit for raising major skills first while also providing adequate challenge as you do so. I think this was probably already suggested in some form many times.