Try e-mailing again then see if there isn't a phone number or snail mail address for you to use.

... and around and around we go.

Again, as I, and others, have stated in the countless related threads, it is not just about Steam, it is about forced bloatware which takes control away from the user.

Comparing Steam with DirectX doesn't make sense. DirectX is part of the OS. Steam is not. Steam is bloatware.

Really?

Compare GamersGate DRM; compared to Steam, it doesn't require you to have any other process running in the background, nor does it require you to configure anything for the simple task to be able to run a single-player game patched to the level you like, the way you want to get the patch.

I'd say GamersGate > Steam, at least for me, since it obviously has less disadvantages.

Tell me, how does Steam take control away when users have full control over the features, how it runs, etc? If anything, Steam gives the same, perhaps more, amount of control to the user while making their life easier.

As for bloatware, unless your computer has less than 1GB of RAM on it, it's not bloatware in the slightest. Right now, on my computer, it's only using about 25 MB of RAM, which is less than what even my gadgets on my desktop are using. That's not much at all. And considering the average PC gamer has about 4+ GB of RAM these days, well yeah. You can see where I'm going there.

Please do us all a favor and state some facts behind your bashing, as Opinion =/= Fact.

Inb4 post which tries to disprove me that contains the words "around and around."

If I don't need any of its features (autopatching, achievements, on-line play and so on), can I uninstall it and the games will continue to run, simply only deactivating the features I decided not to use anyway?

If not, I don't have full control.

If it delays it, seems it's better than nothing. It's the duct tape till we get the real super glue.

I personally would like Steam - if it had an ounce of dialup-friendlyness (I had to download a 50mb I don't even know what when I installed Fallout New Vegas. This was before the patch.) and wouldn't take an hour to start, wouldn't force patches on me, wouldn't randomly leave offline mode (IT. DOES. HAPPEN. It's not a Steam bashing thing, it just does happen!) and make me wait an hour for it to start to put it back into offline mode.

But Steam had a couple handy features. I would personally love to use Steam to get stuff like the Thief series (which I can't find ANYWHERE in hard copy) but being on dialup makes this impossbile. I'd probably be a fan otherwise.


Until Steam can stop being a [censored] to slower connections/lack of connections, keep it out of Elder Scrolls games. Steam is the ONLY reason that is preventing me from playing New Vegas anymore - it keeps jumping out of offline mode to make me download the damn patch.

Can you do the same with other DRMs? No.

Hell, with SecuROM, you have to use a special tool to remove it. Most other DRMs are just stuck on your computer. You at least have the option to remove Steam COMPLETELY if you ever don't want to use it anymore.

Thank you. That is the point I was trying to make. Infrastructure.
If you don't have it, it is a huge problem. I don't think some people realise that you may be able to buy a cel phone for as little as R300., but.. a 3g thingie is about R350+, then you would have to buy a card with 'band width' or something. I don't really understand the whole process.
You have to pay anything between R400 - in some cases R600+ for the new games.
The whole thing seems so simple to people in different comfort zones and different conditions.
Australia, USA and Canada natives will understand what I mean.
Even though my country is tiny compared to theirs, they will get that it is a given that some things are pretty tough.
Heck, we are not savages and 'homeless' because some things are expensive [SA did the 1st heart transplant, remember]
Cel phones were a social revolution here. You cannot believe how costly a landline conection and calls are. Difficult to understand maybe if you have service providers competing with each other for business.
At least we have 3 cel phone service providers so those calls are not quite so insane.
So... believe me, the internet is not the 'given' those people seem to think it is.
That said, you do not have to be 'povety stricken' not to be able to afford it. {or a complete idiot either]

As stated, I definitely think it would be much more beneficial to everyone around the world if Bethesda implemented different DRMs for different regions, as I do understand that internet access is not exactly a given in some places (I didn't even have access to dial-up until I was like 8, and I'm 19 now. We just got DSL back in like 2007. Hooray for rural USA!!! :sadvaultboy: ).

The only problem I see with this is that it opens the gates of piracy ever so wider, but at this point, I really don't care anymore. Pirates are going to crack most DRMs anyway.

I did but I still don't see the argument against Steam. It fetches updates automatically and, contrary to common belief, it does work offline. A boxed copy of the game is always awesome to have but I wouldn't mind if the game was Steam only. If it wasn't on Steam in the boxed version I'd buy that version simply because it was boxed, but if the game used Steam in the boxed version I wouldn't be annoyed with it, I'd be happy. Steam makes everything easier for everyone and that is why it has expanded so much during the last year and continues to do so.

In fact, yes I can. With GamersGate nothing additional even gets installed. Also ...



Please check your dictionary of choice what "full" in "full control" means.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

@ you guys and everyone else who seems to be making the exact same pointless argument

This is not a question of whether or not DRM is bad, if the OP's statement was to not make the game DRM only, then yes most people here would probably say that we agree with your sentiments, however no DRM is simply unrealistic. End of Story.

Games will still be sold as hard-covers, they continue to do today, however, DRM will be used whether you like it or not. Now before you bring up the same tiresome argument that you don't want 3rd party software, online authentication or whatever pointless redundant statement you have remember that this isn't a question of whether or not DRM and other 3rd party software are bad. This is a question of whether or not Steamworks should be used, meaning DRM is a given.End of Story.

If you don't want DRM, that's fine, I share the exact same sentiment, but the difference between the argument coming from the 'Steam fans' and your argument is that the 'Steam fans' are being realistic. Name me one major game published in 2010 that has not used DRM of some kind, little to none is the answer I'm looking for. DRM is the new norm, and I would much rather the game be put on Steamworks rather than the dozens of others that have failed miserably to do so. I hate DRM, however, I am sure that of all the 3rd-party software out there, it's Steam that is the least invasive and the easiest to use.




Living in the middle-east, I for one have had similar experiences to you and understand what you're going through, but I've also had a lot of experience with DRM over the years. I've tried EA, GFWL, Steam, some in-house DRM and a bunch of others which I can't remember and in the end it's Steam that is the easiest to use. It is difficult for regions with weaker infrastructure such as ours, especially yours, I am aware that central Africa is the most affected region in the world by the digital divide and have a lot of sympathy for you. It is also a shame when companies take European and American broadband access as the norm, it does alienate parts of the world and I personally believe that companies need to take better care of this.

So what's the solution to your specific problem? Well time and work is probably the answer. Regarding your computer skills, this is something you need to begin developing on your own. I know that in most of Southern Africa, broadband access is still a developing infrastructural mess and that is something that governments need to begin fixing. You however need to try finding workshops, books, online help, whatever you can to help you get better with computers. This isn't something that a company based in America can help you with, you simply have to take the difficult route and begin personal development, there is no other way. Companies world-wide do need to start noticing and taking care of the rest of the world, it's not limited to video-games, but also things like VEVO on youtube, companies situated in different places in the world need to begin looking carefully at how to implement DRM in other countries, and until then, all you can really do is wait. That is the blunt and truthful answer.

I have to say around and around we go because, again, all these has been explained/stated in multiple threads in the FNV forum, but the folks who like Steam don't seem to listen or just dismiss it.

But, I'll play one more time.

How does Steam take control away when users have full control over the features, how it runs, etc?
You are asking the wrong question. I am not talking about control over Steam features (I couldn't are less about Steam features)
I previously bought FO3 and Oblivion.They all sit in D:/Bethesda Softworks/. Then I bought FNV. Where does FNV sit? Not in D:/Bethesda Softworks where I would like to have it. It HAS to sit in D:/Steam/SteamApps/common/. So I don't have control on where I install the game, do I?

As for bloatware, ...
Bloatware is not defined as something that takes a certain amount of resources, but as something that needs not be there. Certainly Steam needs not be there. With FO3, I could start my game without a DVD, and there was no useless background process running. And please don't point to GFWL. While GFWL installs during FO3 installation, it doesn't run unless you specifically run it, it doesn't force you to create an account to play the game, it is not required to play the game, and it was rather easy to get rid of.

Let's dig up further, shall we?
How about the over writing of files, like the ini files, or game saves? In all my years of playing computer games - and I go waaaay back) FNV is the first game I have ever encountered where the auto saves and quick saves were messed up. Why? Because of Steam. Even if it is "offline" and you are not connected to "the cloud" (cute new name for very old technology... thanks, IBM / M$... but I digress...)
How about modding? Biggest reason I buy Bethesda titles is modding. Steam has this nasty habit of over writing ini files that mess up with my mods, again, even if "offline". Of course, that is easily fixable, but why do I have to?

These are a couple of examples.

As everyone else thinks with DRMs other than Steam... In fact, in the FAQs for GamerGate, it states that games use some form of copy protection/DRM



So technically, additional things are being installed. You just don't know it.

Also, Steam has a one up on GamersGate, because it doesn't require you to download a whole game unless you want to. With GamersGate, YOU HAVE TO DOWNLOAD THE ENTIRE GAME.

Also, by "full" control, I mean users have control over basically EVERYTHING concerning Steam and its features.

Ah, no, reread the first bit of what I said. GG isn't DRM, it's a digital distribution service - steam is both.

Is there an argument for Steam?

DRM, is not only an attempt to fight piracy. But it is also blatant combat to kill the second hand market. I'm just not happy with that. I can see people being impartial to that, sure. Anyone saying they think that is cool needs to check themselves.

Check the games on that site. Almost everyone has a "DRM: ..." line right on top, near the "box art". I do know what I install (most of mine are "DRM Free", with the exception of ArmA 2 which has "SecuROM", though obviously it isn't used for much besides a one-time install check and even can be deactivated if I like without the game stopping to work), and nothing of it is running in the background.



Granted - but then, that's what digital distribution is for, as far as I'm concerned.

You only need to download it once, by the way; the installer leaves you the option of keeping the installation files for future installs, on other machines too.



Do you have control over wheather it is installed or not, wheather it is running or not, independant of wheather the games themselves are installed or running? If not - you don't have full control.

Steam isn't alone in this, most GFWL games (interestingly enough, not Fallout 3, which I can run just fine without the GFWL stuff) are even worse. Still, why settle for the lesser evil if you have the option to pick something better?

@PhYoshi:

GG has a DRM check in most of their games, which does a one-time on-line activation. It's primarily a digital distribution service, but not just that.

To the people complaining about Steam downloading patches automatically:

You can turn it off.

I had to install a game using steam recently. Perhaps part of it was my lack of familiarity with it, but I found it to be very difficult. Installation was a pain, as it wanted to download, instead of just installing from the disc. Steam's website was of little help and the layout of Steam is not very intuitive. Now, everytime we start our pc, there is Steam asking me to log in. If I spend the money on a legit copy of a game, I'd really like to install and play it on my local pc without needing to install 3rd party software that is cumbersome at best. Dragon Age has something similar, but it's not nearly as intrusive as I find Steam to be. I'm hoping they do not use Steam as well.

I think that's part of the problem, at least from my perspective. Trying to configure Steam shouldn't be part of the gaming experience. I want to play a game, not educate myself on the intricacies of Steam.

http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/. Read through it. Can't find anything that says Steam is obligated to enable you to play your games if Steam goes under. In fact, I find quite the opposite language.

So you're complaining about the game having to be installed in the Steam directory? Should it really matter? Are you really crying over having to navigate through a few extra folders just to get to the content? And also, if you're willing to delve in some administrative actions, you can actually install games to different locations and run them using Steam. Besides, my point was that you have control over what Steam does, which you were saying you didn't. You don't want ads annoying you? Disable them. Don't like the auto update? Disable. Hell, disable whatever displeases you.

And by your definition of bloatware, then all DRMs, no matter what shape or size, can be considered bloatware as they are not needed, no? It's just that where as Steam is just a program that idles in your system tray, other DRMs are stuck in your registry and other various locations acting as rootkits basically, constantly eating resources, and you have absolutely no control over them. They're on your system whether you like it or not, and are much harder to remove than just going to your control panel and clicking "uninstall program". Like Steam.

As for modding, you should really make it a common habit to backup your .ini files if you're playing with any mods that modify them. It's basic knowledge (especially with someone who's played for years). And the problems you've mentioned (autosaves and the like) were easily fixable at the time and are fully fixed now. So if there is a problem, Steam is usually very quick to act on it (it took like what, 4 days after release to fix the problem?).

Can we both at least agree that we'd prefer to not have a DRM at all?

It's only three clicks away.