I have used whatever DRM has come with any game I wanted to play always. I have never had a problem with any of them. None.
That said, I find Steam to be one of the better ones and regardless of what this game uses I know I will buy it and play it.

People seem to want no DRM and that will not happen with any game that is published today on a large scale. The arguments that it won't stop pirating of the game while true is like saying you shouldn't bother to put locks on your doors. Locks serve to keep honest people honest and the same can be said for DRM.

I trust they will select a DRM I can live with. But for those who can't live with it....they won't be forced to buy it.

Hey, I've got a question about patches and steamworks. If you buy the retail version of a game that uses steamworks, is steam the only way you'll be able to get patches? Will you have to use it's automatic updater if you want the patches?

Personally, I'd much rather just download an installer for the patch and then have to use an installer rather than patching through steam. My home network (but not the internet connection) tends to drop my PC fairly often and it's sometimes easier to just download big files using other computers with more reliable connections to the network and transfer the files/installer to the pc with a thumb drive.

I really couldn't have said it better myself. :thumbsup:

Perhaps for some folks that are familiar with it. But where is the material on Steam that teaches you how to configure and change everything? I really had trouble finding a "how to" guide. In addition, that's three clicks for one setting. There's more to it than just one.

I don't mind disc-checks, CD-keys, or even one-time internet authentication at a Bethesda-run site.

What I do not like:
- having to install a huge program that I will not use other than as a vehicle to launch my game
- less control over my game (where it installs, the ability to install community-made patches, etc.)
- having some game files with-held from me and that I need to download via Steam (like holding part of my game hostage)

No worries, I'm fully aware of it. If TES5 is on Steam only, it'll get the same treatment as FO:NV did from me - I won't buy it.

Well when 4 days is longer than the time it takes for the average crack come out.... you have legit customers sitting on their thumbs, all the while cracked copies are probably steam issue free.

A situation which can only be called a farce.

Tends to turn itself back on.


I understand the need for DRM, but G4WL was the most dialup friendly DRM ever to have existed. With Fallout 3 it was just a title you saw. You weren't forced to interact with it. You could uninstall it. It may not be the best but it surely isn't the worst.

Steam is bad I shouldn't need to go online to activate my game like New Vegas. Don't give me the argument that everybody has the internet its a bad and flawed argument. All I should need to do is install the game to the computer and then play it, not worrying if Steam is down I can't then play the game. It's Completely stupid as to why they did it with New Vegas and I hope they don't do it with Skyrim. If I want a Patch I'll either use an Official one that Bethesda puts out or wait for somebody to do an unofficial Skyrim Patch like what they did with the Unofficial Oblivion Patch. If its just being done to prevent Piracy thats stupid, its going to happen with Technology the way it is today its not that hard. If people would prosecute those who break the law and pirate the game illegally that would solve a lot of problems and allow people to just install the CD to the computer and then play the game and not have to worry if Steam is down or its going to add extra bugs and glitches because they have control of the patches. I will not get this game for PC if its required that you have to use Steam I'll be buying it for the 360 and then getting it again for the 360 when the GOTY edition comes out.

So you know what your criteria is for if you will purchase a game or not. That's a good thing to know your own limitations. So if this is on Steam or GFWL will you still buy the game or will you let your money talk and buy a different game that does meet your requirements? Do you think there are enough folks that will make a choice not to buy games with Steam or GFWL to make a substantial difference in the market to get game companies to back away from those options?

First part sounds like standard corporate ass-covering to me. It is just so Valve cannot be sued if someone manages to disrupt their service (i'm thinking of outside hackers here) or ask compensation for time when Steam is unusable in the event of a server crash or DoS attack, for example. The second part is standard for any game you purchase. You don't buy games, you buy licenses to use them. That's how it's always been.


Edit:

Initially, yes. However Valve modified the executable to allow OBSE to work with it, as my fully functioning FCOM load order on Steam Oblivion proves.

The Witcher 2 is being released DRM-free, at least when bought from http://www.gog.com/en/page/tw2_preorder/. Not sure if that counts as being "on a large scale" or not, but it at least shows that some publishers are still willing to consider it.

Unfortunately, DRM does little or nothing to "keep honest people honest," because every pirate doesn't have to crack his or her own game - rather, it's cracked once and gets shared. So DRM only affects the "honest" customer; software pirates neither need to know anything about nor deal with whatever DRM publishers use. Many are probably never aware of the existence of whatever DRM they've completely bypassed.

I am of course not advocating piracy in any way, but for the purpose of discussion, the ineffectiveness of DRM can't really be overstated.

THIS.

Steam is awful and completely useless. It won't stop piracy in any way, it won't even delay the pirating process (steam drm is nothing new for pirates).. It will just make honest people feel like criminals. CD-keys, disc checks, and one time internet activation is not a problem. But I don't want to need another program to be able to play my game. And, YES, I want to be able to mode my game with awesome modes like OBSE.

IMO this highlights the need for DRM alternative options as in the choice to have offline OR online choices otherwise the company loses sales.

Read my last post to see why you're argument is flawed from its very beginning, I'm not bothered to try and explain this all over again.




As I mentioned in my previous post, the number of games like this are few to none today. Even if one or two games are still being newly released without DRM, the norm has become DRM. Until I see a list of games released in 2010 without DRM with big game names, I personally refuse to accept this point as valid.

You don't have to. Or shouldn't have to. I don't think it is unreasonable for Steam to download patches right away (saving you the trouble of checking for updates and downloading them), under the assumption that when patches are released they don't break more than they fix, so you'd have no reason to stick with the old version. Most people won't. So it's on by default.


Again, that's simply not true. They were initially incompatible but Valve quickly arranged for it to work. Same for FOSE and NVSE.

How is it flawed I shouldn't need to have my game be required to use Steam. I should just be able to install the game to the computer and then play. If people want to use Steam then sure allow them to use it but don't have it be required in order to play the game. :banghead:

Khal of the Sands, Thank you. Yes, I am trying to improve my pc skills. Always, it is the best option to learn more.
I have learned to use "Thread" pages. [well, sort of]
I have learned to play games
With the help I have kindly been given I will be learning 'word' type skills.
I have learned how to see how much space I have left on my HD, how to defrag, how to disc clean, how to 'manage' my Mod managers.
I have learned how to uninstall, how to uninstall saved games and how to find my remove or repair games in my computer.
I have tried to find 'workshops' to learn to navigate my pc, unfortunately can't find any in my region. Also, the 'self-help' books take it as a given that you have cetain skills, as in understanding the 'jargon'. What do you do when most of what you know is what you garner on the game threads. Heck, I didn't know what a Goty was for the 1st month that I was on the IGN ES threads!!! Oh, right!! I have the Goty edition of Oblivion!! Whoope doo! How cool is that.
Believe me though, I will NOT give up.
Right now I'm sitting with a problem, my ASS Creed2 is glitched and I am stuck in the boot [trunk] of the car. Actually managed to find a place to look for help, downloaded a patch didn't work, my copy is apparently 'newer' than the patch. Nevermind, at least I got as far as I did. These are all milestones for me.
That said I still wish we did not have to be dependant on external issues to load a hard-copy of a game we have purchased. It's not Steam, I have a problem with. It's that we need it. For instance, I have no idea what 'DRM' is. I could work out dlc=download content.
I have no desire to play mult-player, online or any of those and if not for asking for help on my games and being able to 'talk' to people who play them, would never have bothered to have the internet.

Actually yes. EA actually did this. They released a game with no DRM, iirc Prince of Persia. Because of the apparent failure that happened to Spore and it's DRM. DRM that in some theories caused a significant increase in the game being pirated. So they did a game without it to see how it faired.
They never disclosed their results. But for the whole next year they didn't use any online DRM. Then they came out with their own version of steam and started up using it again this past year.

So there definite evidence to suggest that there are enough folks who dislike DRM to actually make an impact. Maybe one that will get steamrollered, but it's big enough for companies to want to test theories on it, so it must sway some amount of numbers. Enough to convince a big wig producer not use to online activation DRM has got to be quite substantial.

Unfortunately I will buy TES5 and use Steam or whatever if I must. I probably will not need anything steam offers. Nor will I be happy to know I am supporting it's existence. When I actually morally object to its opposition to second hand game market. So yeah even at a moral issue let alone a benign convenience issue I will bend. I would like to be staunch, but that ain't happening, because I am playing TES. Priorities.

Oh of course there is an argument for Steam with the automatic downloading of updates, DRM protection, easy reinstallation from disc or the Steam servers and access to friends and a web browser from within the game. Of course that last thing can be achieved by manually adding the game to Steam, so it doesn't really count.
As for the death of the second hand market I do think it's cool, and I am mentally fine thank you. The publishers and developers don't make money if the same game is bought several times, which is of course why they have begun to include free DLC by use of a code. While I see why some people might like to buy their games cheaper (it's obvious why they would want to), I believe it is very important to support the developers so they keep making money and, more importantly, keep making games. We are all inclined to our opinions of course, and I think this Steam thingy is a very interesting discussion :tongue:

Once again I am not bothered to explain this all over again, here is a quote.



Now don't bother responding without reading that or I'll simply ignore you.



Ok, DRM stands for Digital Rights Management, I share the exact same sentiments you have, the whole idea of having to go online for something that has nothing to do with online play is pointless, the attempted piracy-block is also pointless and I have read several articles that suggest this might actually be counter-productive to stopping piracy, in-fact, in October 2008, John McMahon, President of Sony Pictures Television actually said that DRM is one of the main reasons why people turn to file-sharing networks, instead of legal alternatives. I view the whole thing as an attempt to look like a company is progressing while giving PC users some of the console social stuff, but it looks like DRM is slowly becoming the norm. It is sad and I hope that something will change the coming course of events.

From the games released 2010 which I bought, the following had no DRM:

Hearts of Iron 3: Semper Fi (from Paradox)

Funny thing, it was the only big-name game released 2010 which I bought (the other one I bought has no DRM either, but isn't released yet nor big-name: Minecraft ).

You never tried to play Fallout 3 DLCs I bet because while G4WL was optional for Fallout 3, it was mandatory for any DLC. It was fun fun fun, you created an "offline" G4WL account to player F3 and then when you went to get a DLC, you had to use a real online account which would REQUIRE you to be online to player F3. And the fun part was that your saves were linked to your G4WL account. So when you decided you wanted some F3 DLC later on, you suddently had to be constantly online to play any portion of F3 and you lost your saves in the process unless you knew the two vastly different folders where they would be hiding.

I for one, will now definately be buying Wicher 2. I have been avoiding buying new games because of what happened to me with New Vegas. [not to mention the nightmares about what I will do when Skyrim comes out]
I will absolutely buy it no matter what. Even if it means getting a 'techie' out for the installation!!! I'll save for the whole year to be able to afford it!
The only thing I didn't really like about the Witcher, was how you move around.
That being said, I am a Bethesda game addict.

I read your post while I don't agree with it I understand why Companies use a 3rd person group but regardless they have to make it optional to use Steam or I'm buying it for Console.