I liked New Vegas better than FO:3.....

In any event, Beth has gotten away from doing RPG's. They now do action/adventure games with role-playing elements. Bummer.

I think there's a lot of ways you can slice games up into categories and various spectrum you can align them along. One concept is simulation versus game mechanics (for lack of a better term) - it's rarely an either/or situation and most games fall somewhere along this imaginary spectrum. Different players have different preferences and I think if games criticism had a more evolved vocabulary a lot of these arguments would run a lot more civil. In short, I think you can plot a game along an imaginary path where at one end you're completely focused on simulation of a game world, and at the other end you're totally focused on gameplay mechanics and everything is completely abstracted.

I'm trying to think of a good hypothetical here, but falling short. A good illustration of this dichotomy, I think, is Spore. A very promising game that sort of fell flat and from interviews and articles after the fact, it appears that a lot of the failings of the game came about because the team found itself in a philosophical split over where the game should go, specifically where along this spectrum the game ought to fall. So what came out was a game with some amazing customization features (simulation side of the spectrum) but wasn't all that fun to play due to a lack of focus on the game side of the spectrum (not much of a focus on the aesthetic principles of game mechanics - the game side of the spectrum.)

Or take The Sims franchise - I think this game befuddled a lot of people when it first came out because of it's cross-over appeal. Some people just enjoyed making Sims and building houses (simulation-end) while a lot of fun could be had in playing the game itself (if you think about it, Sims 2 actually had a pretty deep RPG mechanic behind it.) RPGs generally fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, with some leaning to one side or the other. (Wasteland 2 is more mechanics-focused, or example; while Fable would be more towards the sim end of the spectrum.)

I think a lot of the controversy around Fallout stems from this paradigm shift in design philosophy between Black Isle's original gameplay focus and Bethesda's interpretation of the setting. Bethesda has always made games with more of a simulation angle, and with Fallout they took a game with more of a mechanics-focused design. So players who find fault with Bethesda's version of the setting generally are looking to bring things more towards the mechanics end, while their polar opposites often see the pull towards the simulation side as "progress" when it's actually more of a lateral slide towards their preferred end of the line.

Frankly, it's been quite a few years since Fallout 3 came out. I know the sort of games Bethesda makes, and I know what their design goals are going to be by now. My general gameplay preferences place me pretty firmly towards the mechanical end but I enjoy a wide variety of games. This is their take on the setting, and if they're going to keep making Fallout games then honestly I'd rather they put out something they have some passion for.

"Fallout 4 is no longer an RPG because I said so."

Well, there's a GOTY edition upgrade coming soon^tm. Supposedly they've fixed the combat balance with it, also added new features (like aimed shots like in Fallout), and upgraded the engine. We'll see how it goes.

My main problem with it is that armor does more harm than good ( ) in the latter half due to how energy weapons work in it. (Basically, the more armor rating is above the weapons threshold, the more damage it does). At least Bethesda has managed to keep high-end armor (in principle) more useful

Still, a cool turn-based tactical Sci-Fi RPG
(Though XCOM:EU is better for the "turn-based tactical Sci-Fi" part )


Well, as i've said before, maybe their action game mechanics will be better than their half-assed RPG mechanics.


There's a lot of us saying so

Doesn't make you any more correct.

I remember old style RPGs, some had a pretty linear path to the end that went something like "Yay, you won!" then dropped you to a DOS prompt.

Ah the good old days!

Ouch, my age is showing!

That works both ways.

it isn't really an RPG any more, as player skill trumps character skill more often than not. It is an action game, with RPG elements. that's it.

Can you still play a role? Then it's still a RPG.

Just because you disagree with the changes doesn't mean it's no longer a RPG.

I read the link and found it very interesting. I was kind of surprised he lets his kids (he didn't say how old) play Fallout New Vegas? But, oh well. I agree with most of what he was trying to say.

I am not sure about the one part about them wanting their "games to be games, and their books to be books" and text being "a ridiculous, archaic intrusion". That made me kind of sad.

By that definition, Pong would be a role-playing game.

Uuuuuuuuuuuiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

You mean devolve, the dumbification of games is nothing to be proud about.

Pong doesn't have a story, so no?

I'm not really interested in getting into this debate yet again, frankly. This has been rehashed so many times. Call Fallout 4 a 2D platformer for all I care.

A good game is 4.5 out of 10?

I have played the game. You can speed up travel time, so I don't see what the issue is, the travel is faster than FO1, just not as fast as FO2 with the car. Energy Weapons are deadly as hell, so are sniper weapons, and melee weapons are powerful as well, but with sniper, ew, ar, I didn't play around as much with Melee.

Maxed out skill only 40%? I had no problems with skill checks regularly in the 70% higher range and a lot of skill checks were trivial 90%+ towards end game. IIRC the speed at which you pass skill checks is determined by one of your attributes, so if you put those skills on characters who had low score in that regard, it would be slower. My trap, lockpick character had high attribute, so it didn't take me long picking locks or disarming traps. That is just proper character build.

I question if you played the game, cuz I ran with two ew character who regularly turned enemies to goop throughout the game and they definitely out damaged my assault rifle character, although ar is a solid weapon from start to finish.

Ideally evolution is the gradual improvement of old systems and not gutting them. Games should evolve, but not every change is good or a step forward. Just like Fallout 3, Fallout 4 seems to be a complicated web of forward and backward steps.

Evilfish getting reeled during a competition ITT.

We still have to see how character building and customization to be unique are represented in the game. I don't think FO4 is going to be any less of an RPG than Morrowind or FO3 is. It's just a lot less-intrusive than those games are. Boston is a very dense world with fun combat and tons to collect and craft. If the game offers different paths/outcomes based on your decisions and offers multiple factions you can join, I don't see the problem. Offer a hardcoe/survival mode where cooking and everything else matters and it's go time.

If someone can tell me what is supposed to make this game an RPG without infusing magic stones in your gun or armor, please explain.

Agreed. We don't even understand for sure how the leveling feature works in this game. We're making a lot of assumptions from what might be a perk chart with no description, iirc.

Only one week until Quakecon guys, let's not panic just yet!

It would not matter HOW early you would say this it does not matter. They do not listen to feedback except in EXTREME circumstances, no developer does.

Bethesda makes action RPG's, it will NEVER go back to the style of Fallout 1 and 2, ever.

as for that last part, no, but better sales is all a company cares about, since you know, they are a company and their goal is to make money.

I think it was the Toaster repair skill that was maxed out but some toasters still were at 40% chance, forcing you to save load abuse. Locks and trap have chests that were still 60% maxed out.

You cannot speed up walking time. Remember the railroads? Those were 20 minute walks.
Snipers are nice but the Damage : AP ratio made Assaults a better option since you can fire at least twice. With the Snipes you have to wait a turn at least since the first turn is for positioning and crouching.
You probably played a patched version. In the version I have Energy weapons are good ONLY for Honey Badgers. Melee is GARBAGE.

And what about Rose and Lex end-game? What the hell was that? It was a good game that deserved 9/10 but the flaws dragged it down. If the GOTY version is coming I'm probably getting that. I can't stand NOT KNOWING what happens to Team Foxtrot.

Yes they do. Why do you think we have the quest compass? No verbal directions to your location anymore? Just a magic arrow pointing the way. Why do you think major/minor skills went away? Immortal companions? Etc. Beth DOES listen, it's just, so far as I am concerned, they are listening to the WRONG people. But then, those are the folks that make up the vast majority of their customers...... so, money talks, and roleplayers lose.

Hmm I don't remember more than 1 or 2 difficult toaster repairs. I don't remember 20 minute walks either, and I assume you talking about rail nomads which is fairly large map. Seeing how there always seemed like something to do or find I didn't find running around tedious.

I played the most up to date version of the game, I didn't get it on launch as I just got my PC 2 months ago and my ew characters were pretty much assured an instant kill on any mob in game save for uber bosses. Gamma Ray Blaster in burst mode.

I guess that is why it always good to wait on some games before purchase, to get updated versions. I never crashed, never encountered a bug, it was a very smooth experience and a ton of fun, as I played it non-stop. I look forward to a sequel and or an expansion.

http://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/a0PbrvO_700b.jpg

Making less obtuse =/= dumbing down

A quest compass is indeed dumbing down. Removing gameplay aspects that related directly to character skill over player skill is indeed dumbing down.

You can be a beth cheerleader all you want, but, it doesn't change anything. The games are becoming less RPG, more action/adventure games. If you want to keep your blinders on, and refuse to see it, well, that's up to you.

The Filthy Casual Army strikes again.