It seems that whenever Bethesda decides to axe a feature from Skyrim, a common response is for people to say that the feature was redundant, or that is was pointless. Spears were pointless, they were just retextured swords. Mysticism was redundant, it didn't serve a clear purpose. Throwing weapons were pointless, they were too weak. Pauldrons and Greaves are extraneous, it makes more sense to just combine them. Crossbows were pointless, they were just too slow for an adventurer. Levitation and Mark/Recall are cheap mechanics, allow players to take the easy way out.

I really do not understand this logic. In a RPG like TES, a game where the main draw is the ability to do whatever you want, words like "pointless" and "redundant" should not exist. A player should have the ability to freely customize his character with minimal restrictions. Sure, I guess you can write off merged armor slots as not that big of a deal, but didn't we deal with the same thing in Oblivion? What happens in TESIV, when Bethesda decides to make things even easier by giving us one piece armor sets? Will it still not matter?

According to this logic, almost every feature in a TES game is redundant. Axes and Blunt weapons are redundant, they're just retextured swords. Daggers, short blades, and claymores are redundant. Daggers and short blades are just weaker long swords, and claymores and just too slow for an adventurer. Destruction magic is redundant, we already have swords and bows, and destruction magic is just too complicated. Restoration magic is pointless, we already have potions. Heavy armor is pointless, it's just too slow for an adventurer. Actually, almost every single equipment type is redundant, the only one that matters is Daedric. Iron and steel weapons are just too weak, the only weapon in the game should be a Daedric long sword...

Yes, that is an exaggeration of the problem, but it has been a common theme in every TES game (barring Daggerfall) to give us less and less features and customization. You can say that less armor slots isn't that big of a deal, but it will eventually reach the point where we will have no customization at all, and TES will become a linear action game, where you won't be able to deviate from the path that Bethesda has set. Bethesda may have some surprises in store for Skyrim. Who knows, I might be completely wrong. But at this point, I can't say that I like the direction that Bethesda is taking the series

Hasn't a topic consisting almost exactly of this been closed in the past ten minutes?

You even said it yourself, you're making an exaggerated point.

What Bethesda chooses to remove or keep is up to Bethesda. I will not pass judgement on the game until I have played it and seen the dynamics of the work. I implore all others to do the same.

I can bet a lot of the "redundant" axed features will come back in the future.

Such posts are redundant, pointless and extraneous....

Some people will simply defend any changes Bethesda make, with no regard for logic whatsoever. :shrug:

...

Spears, crossbows and throwing weapons were not redundant - they needed improving, yes, but not removing entirely. When you remove them entirely, you're removing a number of people's favourite weapons. I guess we can thank perks and finisher moves for that.

Having separate armour pieces was not redundant - a vast amount of people will have mixed and matched armour in previous TES games, rather than walking around like an NPC in a full set.

Birthsigns were not redundant - they had little impact in terms of gameplay, but added a lot of flavour to the character creation process for many people.

Athletics and acrobatics were not redundant - they just needed to be improved. Not everyone wants to be a mage, warrior or thief - by removing those skills, you're effectively removing how a lot of people like to roleplay.

Yes, it's exaggerated, but I really wouldn't be surprised if we saw something like blunt weapons being removed in the next TES game. Back before Oblivion came out, I never would have expected Bethesda to remove spears. When Oblivion was out, I never imagined Bethesda would lower the amount of armor slots any more.

Bethesda has yet to do this in Oblivion or Skyrim, so I can't see this happening.

Listen, this is Bethesda If they decide to remove things, they decide it. You can assume they are all intelligent persons having reasons for what they do.

Haven't they said that they removed spears because they weren't able to implement them in a way they thought was good enough?

I remember hearing they say they cannot implemented spear "realistic" enough. In real life spear wielders who fight alone are extremely vulnerable to melee fighters who uses swords and axes. If they do that, they would ended up having player character who cannot fight well alone which can be consider game breaking....

Very well said! :goodjob:

There are a lot of different layers of gameplay to massive open world RPGs like Skyrim, Oblivion and Morrowind.

In the transition from Oblivion to Skyrim, we are losing some of these layers and gaining others. To accurately evaluate the game as a whole and gauge its merits relative to the previous TES games requires being able to play it, or at least to know a lot more information that what we know so far.

Thank you.
This is about what Im saying every time someone makes my skin crawl by mindlessly rehashing the meme 'redundant'.
I do have developed quite an aversion to that word.

In a game such as this, there is no such thing as negative redundancy.
It is always only a positive thing when there are more viable ways to achieve roughly the same thing.

Agreed but by that logic everything has a counter. Pikemen (spears) Kills Mounted,Mounted Kills Archers,Archers kill Swordsmen,Swordsmen kill Pikemen. That is the general fight layout.

Personaly anyone defending beths decisions doesn't have to say they r redundant they just have to say it's beths choice they make the games to be the best they think they can be end of story... Redundant or not

Im afraid of what they are going to 'streamline' next in TESVI. Skyrim is crossing the border into being too simplified. Sure the OP exaggerated the situation, but its not that far off if things continue on the path that they are going.

TES:VI, less skills, less weapons, less armor slots, less magic, who knows, they might decide to cut a race out because its not that popular!

This is a game about magic, wizards, dragons, and cat people... how exactly does realism matter?

Yup...But in Skyrim, the player will be alone....He cannot command mounted troops to kill archers and so on....What the fight got to be is like Weapon A can go well with style A....If you use Weapon A and Style A well....you win....if you use Style B instead....you have a chance of losing....It's hard to do so with a weapon with such an obvious weakness as spears....

Really? You wouldn't be surprised. Spears were a single weapon type, with a two halbreds thrown in. That's it. No variations except for those two halbreds and the different materials. Blunt weapons in Oblivion included maces, war axes, clubs, battle axes and warhammers. All of these had different material options. Don't compare the two.

I was more referring to actual blunt weapons, as in maces and hammers. Spears were a single weapon type, but they were still extremely useful in Morrowind. With practice, it was possible to keep an opponent at a distance while still being able to deal damage to them.

Also, in Oblivion, Marksman had only a single weapon type: Bows. That's it. Of course I will compare the two.

Rofl. Indeed, this thread is pointless, redundant and extraneous.

Anyone thought about how many of the new and innovative features wouldn't have made it into the final game, if Bethesda wasted their time with implementing "redundant" stuff? It's their decision to take anything out what they believe isn't good enough for their game...and I'm sure it's the main reason why they take things out...the second reason would be, you have to consider how the gameplay works when everything is put together and if things svck they have to be droped in order to not destroy the gameplay...because you know, in a computer game, gameplay is everything. This is not a real life RPG. Computer games are about fun and not sitting together on a round table and deal with the ordinary nerd rage, when the story teller killed one of the group and you trying to sum up your skill points. If a computer game doesn't have a serious "flow" and "runs" and "plays" well, you'll probably drop it like hot iron.

Btw. it's easy to mod things like spears, crossbows and armour back into the game. Even armor that is splittet into multiple parts. Modding new magic into the game is also very easy. But making a ingame map that zooms out of the real world, is probably a lot harder to do. So if you ask me, if I want spears or a zooming map, I tend to take the second feature, because it's an awesome new feature, while a spear is just that...another two handed weapon.

Bethesda has a long history in developing brilliant games...they know what they're doing.

I've yet to see one quality mod that adds spears, crossbows, or pauldrons to Oblivion. If I recall correctly, it was damn near impossible to mod a new weapon type in to Oblivion.

Just once, instead of streamlining everything to within an inch of its life, it'd be nice to hear exactly what they're adding to the game. New features that deliver a genuine sense of challenging complexity to the gameplay experience. Dumb duel wielding and dragon shouts - these 'additions' to the TES universe just aren't enough to compensate for the loss of skills and the insufferable 'magic compass' that not only refuses to go away, but has been elevated to the top of the screen!

I hear encouraging things like the ability to cook food, and 'influence' local economies, but I agree with the OP - too many features are being casually discarded on the basis that they're 'redundant'. Since when has the ability to hone your 'blade skills' in an RPG been 'pointless'? . Now we must endure the folly of only being skilled in 'one handed' or 'two handed weapons'. Maybe the perk system will compensate for this, allowing you to gain specialism in blades if you wish, but there come's a point when all this removing of classic TES features just becomes an exercise in destructive reductionism

It must be only you, because I have not heard one person say spears were pointless.

Bethesda said it themselves, I'm pretty sure it was way back in the Oblivion fan interview.

I heard Skyrim has pole-arms, maybe you missed the good news and drowned in the bad news?