Please keep the discussions cordial and diplomatic Thank you.


On an unrelated note, I finally finished the WIP thread for the Daggerfall: Total War mod that I started. So far I am very confident of the concept work, even the magic scripting seems feasible to me. Anyone interested in Total War, or just helping bring Tes war RPs to life, please stop by and offer your opinions. If you really like what you see, we would very much appreciate your help on the concept team. Or, if anyone here has skill as a modder, we are also looking for those

Particularly I would like to draw your attention to the method I have devised for substituting the Pope with the Emperor. I made that up on the fly, so if anyone has any comments, please let me know. And, going with the current theme of magic, I am also looking for advice on my proposed implementation of magic in the game. Also, any special guilds, units, events, etc. would be appreciated, my practical knowledge of some of Hammerfell and High Rock is a little rusty

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=7652235#post7652235

Also, if you know anyone that would be interested in such a mod, especially if they are able to help in some way, I would very much appreciate it if you could link them to the WIP and talk to them about it. I can't contact everyone, and any help you can give is very much appreciated. Thank you very much

I strongly agree.

However, I do think that many who master magic do so, or are at least helped out a good bit by wealth and such. I would always figure that the richest families (excluding most of the non-magic using races: the crown Ra Gada look down upon Eastern Magic because Western Magic is much better etc ) would be the ones using the magic. The poorer ones would raise their kids by their trade really, and the kids would get a good view on the fact that you don't need magic to succeed. Therefore, they would not spend the money on the training and spells, as well as the time.

You don't like giving me credit, do ya?

My bad. Looks like you did. Anyway, this should go well. We just need to revise it and such a few times, and get some teammates. Then we should be ready to roll.

It's not important, and calling somebody out on it is not proper behaviour.

Yea it wasn't proper. I apologize. I've been a bit grumpy today. Didn't fall asleep until 5:30 last night, and I had to get up at 7:30.

I have learned from a very good and reliable source that I am stupid and that I have lived on plains all my life!
Therefore my arguments are completely useless! For what kind of arguments can a stupid person do?
Anyone who thinks that perhaps this very good and reliable source is trying to just get away an irritating arguer who ruins his plans of nerfing the magic is just stupid too. Or atleast that is what this good and reliable source seems to think.

Now. I got lots of stuff to do elsewhere, in places where I am not known as a idiot and some sort of steppe-nomad. Bai bai!

Who cares who your friend is?

* How many mages an army could realistically contain.
* The use of less skilled mages within the infantry ranks, as battlemages.
* The use of more skilled mages as support troops to the infantry or missile troops, offering healing and other "buffs".
* The use of skilled mages' offensive magic, such as destruction spells.
* The ideal location for said skilled mages, and how to protect them from possible attack.
* Anti-magic tactics, especially for a less magically inclined army (such as Nords or Redguards) fighting a more magically inclined army (Altmer or Dunmer).
* The use of magic for defensive tactics, such as shield spells.

Oke lots of questions to answer, lets begin with one by one.

The have played rome total war, and medieval 2. Also where melee, ranged and magic comes into 1 game is WoW (World of Warcraft) and Guild Wars.

* How many mages an army could realistically contain.
Depends on how many there are in a faction. If you compare the equipment of a mage with a normal soldier.

both need food and clean water and normal equipment (so you scraqe that away)
Soldiers need: repair kits, arrows (a bunch of them) heavy armor to carry around and if needed a backup weapon (short dagger). Let alone the equipment (tents, shovel etc) they need to take to make a full camp. I would base this equipment on the Romans. Since they were highly mobile lightly armored but still heavy enough to do serious damage with their tactics. This means the head and Torso was in protected in the early periods by tough leather/iron, in the later periods quality steel (prehitorians came forth). They couldn effort to take up a complete armor set because that will drain the fatigue of an army very quickly.

A mage on the other hand is very lightly dressed. It only needs a sword + shield with the normal equipment (tent etc). Its armor COULD (optional) be made out of shield spells.
This means a mage alone have to carry 20-30 kilo's less of repair tools arrows etc because they based their combat on magic.
So my conclusion would be that mages based on mobility would be much higher. If they know you would fight against an way bigger army and its heading towards you i wouldnt blame them to put on heavy armor to protect them more. On the other hand if you are on the offensive part you want to be as mobile as possible.


* The use of less skilled mages within the infantry ranks, as battlemages.
* The use of more skilled mages as support troops to the infantry or missile troops, offering healing and other "buffs".
* The use of skilled mages' offensive magic, such as destruction spells.
* The ideal location for said skilled mages, and how to protect them from possible attack.


These questions can be summarized into 1 question: What is the role of a mage in a army overal.
I would like this base my argument reffered to Guild Wars.
The reason behind is that when you go into massive battles mages who see someone is hurt 5 mages will protect him wich means this can be a huge waste of mana while your in combat. Therefore each mage will be given a special role depending on his class and skill in each magical skill. This means he either debuffs, protects/heals or use bad ass spells to wreck enemy positions.
These tactics can be all seen in Guild Wars. Yes it has it limits on comparing TES with Guild wars but i find it very close to each other when it comes down to a combination of melee/magic and archery.

If we take the biggest map they have it would likely be (Alliance battle) you see they have small squads made up of 4 people. A tank (warrior) that soaks up the damage and gets healed by the priest/monk.
A interrupter/debuffer/archer/put any class here for support or more damage. and finnaly mostly a "battle mage". Once you encounter a bigger group then you force them to spread out otherwise they get bombed by magical spells meaning they do less damage to your party etc.
Also when 2 groups will combine their power, it will double all its powers (damage/debuff/healing) without sacrificing something else. Then the rule applies you will protect your squad. If you have the energy/mana left you can help out your other team mates.

Once you have a bigger party (mostly 8) it tends to bring in 2 priests/monks to fully protect a party and then uses lots of debuff + damage in order to wreck damage on the other side. The other 5 slots can be filled in depending on the situation. mostly it consists of 2 warriors, 2 priest/monks, 3-4 mages(support/destruction/debuff). 1 archery (to cripple the enemy so warriors can finish them off)

* Anti-magic tactics, especially for a less magically inclined army (such as Nords or Redguards) fighting a more magically inclined army (Altmer or Dunmer).

Since TES have potions how about they have a whole bunch of them and make a arrow rain of dispel? This means mages who do not have steel/iron armor/shield will get eaten up by arrows. The rest will be down to the infantry to choke them up with poisones swords. Also Nords had some nasty frost spells right?


Cavalery: This is a tough dillema for me since I haven't seen any "combat" cavelery seen in oblivion/morrowind/Guildwars.

Lets say you can devide them in missle cavalery (archery/magic shooting stuff) and charging cavelery (spears/swords etc) and of course the missle/attack cavalery (can do both).
Then if you have mages you can base them around the same as in guildwars squads. with mages keeping a designated number of people alive/protected while the rest do its thing on a horse.

The reason why people used cavalery in the medieval periods is they could quickly overwhelm an army on 1 point, wich will break the moral of the troops on 1 flank wich will eliminate the enemy at that position and makes your troops available to march to an other location and make an imbalance there in numbers.

Based on Rome Total War i would say a combination of horses will first shoot out some magic/arrows to weaken the defenses/lowering down the moral of the enemy troops. Once the main infantry line charges in it will either hammer and anvil (attacking 1 group from 2 sides, so they dont know wich side to defend resulting in a quick death) or a 1-2 punch (1 group will go left, other right, the enemy main cavalery will attack 1 group, that group will run away while the group that is now free will do hammer and anvil).

i know this all is a big if. But i based it around some periods and experience what i have seen around.

well grote, the only problem with using MMO party dynamics as a reference is that the range of a mage's power can be much larger than say, the effect one healer can have in a raid. A powerful enough mage can debuff entire armies, by themselves, or a small unit can bring down a city's gates. Or complete a complex ritual while in communion with a daedric prince in order to open a gate into Oblivion!

What I'd like to see is a mage use a burst missile like effect to rain lightning down from the sky, or perhaps fling a curse at an enemy general that will last for generations.

Thats a very powerfull mage, but if one mages can withstand a whole army thats a bit.... Overpowered? Either way a mage that powerfull must be very very old to have learned such a skill and only that skill. Mostly they have a bit of everything. Also it can debuff an army but not in like seconds. meaning he can be showered with a rain of arrows (our arrows will block out the sun ^^) or hit by lots of lesser (but togheter powerfull) spells.


Your area of effect spells:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Fire_Storm
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Teinai%27s_Heat
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Meteor_Shower
(ele=destruction mage)

Curse? Of course!
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Suffering (nec = hexes/curses + undead minions)

But their also not in the middle of the fray either. Any mage that was going to cast such a spell would hang back. (Also, When I said by themselves, I didn't mean they'd withstand the army, but that they alone could cast a spell so powerful the entire enemy army would be debuffed at once. That they wouldn't need other mages to cast similar spells [firing off a chain of AOE's], or that they'd have to work with other mages as part of some ritual)


I like that spell list!

I'm sorry to hear you are leaving, Haresus, but I understand where you're coming from. However, while I know a few people might have been a tad harsh, a good portion of us are probably just being mis-represented by the internet. I'm sure you know how things can get lost in translation when you only have text to go by. I'm sure that almost everyone here was simply trying to debate your point, rather than make fun of you in any way. And if you're not extremely careful then debating can come across as insulting on these kinds of boards. I've seen it happen dozens of times. However, if you're determined to leave us I understand, and wish you better luck in the future



On the current topic that Grote brought up, I would be hesitant to use Oblivion game mechanics or MMOs too much. Sure you can take some stuff from them, but don't base your whole idea on what someone else made up. Because in the end, all games are bound to be limited by their engines, while our writing doesn't have to have any limits I agree with most of what you are saying, but I think that historical logistical tactics are more effective for writing. Combined with a bit of logic and common sense, anyone can write a convincing fantasy battle

Nonsense. Please continue to join in the discussion and report any personal attack like that to a moderator. I have not seen you argue, and Wooly, this person was simply debating with you while only sticking to the topic.

Ad-hominem attacks are unneccessary, and you can be polite while also using your point of view. Refrain from getting worked up over a discussion to which this thread is dedicated to.

I'm hesitant to compare realism in warfare to WoW or Guild Wars... even comparing warfare to Total War games might not be such a great idea actually... Best not dwell on such things lest people start using strategies that they use in Total War games because "it always works".... yeah, maybe against the retarded computer.

My question still stands on whether Lutemonsters could be use as mobile artillery platforms or as a type of siege tower.

It depends. Seeing as lutemonsters are a concept from Tamriel Rebuilt, it would all depend on the creativity of the writer or whatever the artist who created said they could do.

In the Timeline we represented them as much more docile then elephants, they were about the size of those super lotr elephants I think. So yes, it was possible to have ballistae on top of them or a good deal of men who would scale a city wall using the beasts height.

In the Timeline we represented them as much more docile then elephants, they were about the size of those super lotr elephants I think.

Mumikil

I'm hesitant to compare realism in warfare to WoW or Guild Wars... even comparing warfare to Total War games might not be such a great idea actually...

Well, because magic and wizardry never actually existed, the only thing we can do is look to other things for examples. Whether it be books or online gaming, the mage is a difficult concept to actually grasp because they originated from some mind a long time ago; and, like a legend or myth, it deteriorates and twists over time.

Since their one of Tamriel Rebuilt's creations, I'd say it's situational depending on the rp host. You could make the argument that the lutemonster could do both, (people can ride on it's back, if it has arms, it can swing 'em) but it's up in the air whether you'd be able to convince an rp host to let you use both functions, or even the creature.

Its also best not to use different games to make sense of magick in TES. I don't think cross-game examples work well enough because each game universe has its own way that magicka works with its own powers and limitations to it.

I say the Guildwars spell thing is irrelevant. This is TES.

Haresus. I never intended to insult you personally. Still, if you took something the wrong way, I am sorry. It just seems to me like you aren't reading everything we are posting. Regardless, make your own decision to stay or leave. I'd like to see you here, but in the end it is your choice.

It's the internet. People say [censored] to you. Sometimes they mean it, and other times it is lost in translation. When I started out, I had a lot of people say [censored] to me, and they actually meant it.

Sometimes man, on the internet and in life, you just have to svck it up. We all misunderstand things, and I understand we all don't always try to find things that may possibly be lost in translation. Still, when you are unsure of something to the slightest bit, you should double check. I'll apologize. I've been a bit stressed out and grumpy over the past few days.

Darkom, tell me, why does this thread say:

"Political RPing Discussion Talk about Tactics!"

What do politics have to do with battlefield tactics?

You would be incredibly surprised at how much politics goes on pre, during, and post-battle. Politics is more than lying, makinng and enforcing laws, back-door deals. It's the codified expression of human resentment and entitlement.

Apologies if you do not appreciate my syntax. I treat "political RP" and "war RP" as synonymous, therefore I meant the tactics one would use in a war RP. Or, as I also call it, a political RP.

Also what Verlox said

Well, they are two different things...just to let you know, of course.

Also Vlox. I know...

Just thought "War RP discussion" may have been more appropriate. Still, doesn't really matter. We all get the point. It was more of a humor thing anyway.

Well now, this thread seems to have run out of things to talk about. Anyone care to discuss the pros and cons of guerrilla warfare in a Tes setting? Particularly the Argonian's success against Dunmer invasions?

On a similar note, Long Road to Ruin is in great need of someone to play as the Khajiit. They have taken Leyawiin and now only Bravil stands between them and the Imperial city itself. I'm guessing you would recieve at least forty thousand soldiers, including those Senche we have been talking about. I ask because I am sending a diplomat that way as Helseth, and I would very much like for someone to be able to talk to I would take it myself, but that would simply be cheating, as I could gang up on Bravil.

Anyone at all would be more than welcome, the RP seems to be off to a smashing start It sounds like it will be very interesting, so long as the players stay committed. Thanks


EDIT: We are also looking for someone to play the Aldmeri Dominion, if anyone would be interested in that.

Argonians have several advantages that can't be related to other groups, making them a bad thing to examine if you want to evaluate the pro's and cons of guerrilla warfare outside of Black Marsh.. Black Marsh is a very hostile place, with diseases running amok. It's a good way to catch the Tamriellic equivalent of Malaria. The Argonians do not suffer the effects of Black Marsh's disease ridden swamps, giving them a huge advantage. Also, the Argonians are controlled by the Hist, giving them an unprecedented level of coordination. The Hist can even order Argonians to do things that are suicidal, so it stands to reason that a hist controlled Argonian unit also doesn't have any morale issues.

I think your diplomat would get killed by some Khajiit patrol or scout force. Khajiit and Dunmer you know... And Khajiit at war too... Not a good combination... For the Dunmer. Just my 5 septims.

I am back I guess. Wont be joining any RPs though. Unless they are in an extremly clear way meant for n00bs.